Blown up Savage

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sdporter

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Hey guys, I'm new to this forum and have a couple of questions that it sounds like several of you may have an answer for. A few years back I was curious why a guy (or gal) couldn't shoot smokeless out of a muzzleloader, I figured in my own, feeble mindedness, that if you produced the same velocity with a given weight of projectile, that the pressure in the barrel should be the same, so I asked google. What turns up but the Savage 10ML II. Needless to say, I went out and bought it.
I bought Accurate 5744 (only because there were other loads for it in some of the cartridges I reload) TC Easy Glide sabots with 250 grain, I think, bullets (yellow sabot, yellow tip). I loaded it up with the middle of the road load for 5744 (by weight). Don't recall the exact amount, forty something grains. It shot like a dream!!
I have it topped with a Burris Scout 1X scope, (all that was legal in Utah at that time) and was getting two inch grouping at 100 yds. I sighted it about 4" high at 100 yds and was pounding the crap out of a paper plate at 200.
Since powders which contain nitro-cellulose are not legal on Utah's muzzleloader hunt. I put it away, thinking I could use it during the any weapon (rifle) season. Haven't shot it since.
Last week on the news (Fox 13 Now) there was a story of a guy who was sighting in his muzzleloader and it blew up in his face. It was a Remington Ultimate. His buddy was filming and so the whole thing was on video. It appeared to me that he was shooting smokeless powder through it. No big puff of white smoke.
When I was searching for this video, it led me to several results that had to do with Savage rifles blowing up.
There seemed to be two conflicting sides to this topic. Randy Wakeman and a fellow (don't recall his name) who was supposedly let go by Savage for being a malcontent. Randy saying there is no problem, the other dude saying, basically, do not shoot your Savage! I called Savage and got a gal on the phone who basically answered my questions but, she wouldn't really volunteer any information when I asked her why the rifle was discontinued, and if she knew approximately how many of these rifles have had barrel failures. She did say she believed any failures were from operator error in not sticking to the recommended loads. I emailed Randy and he said he knows of no rifle that has failed when sticking to the manufacturers recommendations. The other dude was showing pictures of breech plugs that had obvious gas cutting around the face, but I fail to see how this would do anything to contribute to a catastrophic failure of the barrel. Seems it would just blow a little hot gas back at your face (common in any sidelock I've ever shot) if it could get past the threads. Since I really got no re-assurance from Savage that my rifle was completely safe, I figured I would ask you guys. Have any of you seen or heard, firsthand, of someone blowing one of these up who was loading it properly? Also what happens when the vent liner hole gets opened up? Sounds to me from what I've been reading, that the gun just won't go off. I would assume that it's purpose is to make the flame from the primer a little more concentrated, or to keep the back pressure against the primer down so it doesn't deform and get stuck, or both. Thanks in advance for any insight.
Stacey
 
Ive never heard of a Savage MLII failure that used a factory suggested load and properly loaded. There was one if i remember correctly with LilGun but the guy was using sub bases and larger amounts of powder. He admitted to it and never tried to hide the fact. Lil'Gun has not been recommended or listed as a powder for a very long time and sub bases have always been a "no no" according to Savage.

N110, 5744, SR4759 all work ok. Reloder7 and N120 also work fine with 300gr bullets ONLY.
 
That's kinda what I thought. You read so much stuff on the internet and you don't know who or what to believe. Best to get your info from sources such as these, but then you have to decide who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't. I debated selling the rifle, but it is such a beautiful gun. I traded my Encore and a few bucks for it to a local dealer here.
I had shot a nice four point mule deer with my Encore and didn't get a real great hit on him. Then the shakes set in for fear I was gonna lose him. A couple of clean misses later, I'm ripping the gun apart to clean it so I can get another sabot down the barrel. Right then and there I decided, follow up shots are paramount when hunting. I wish I could say every animal I ever took was a clean one shot kill. Most have been. There's always those unforeseen variables that can rear their ugly head at any moment, a sudden wind gust, an animal that moves just as you squeeze off, a flyer etc...
I wanted a gun that shot flat, reloaded easily, and was dependable. The Savage seems to fit. My Whites all reload easily time after time, but, that rainbow trajectory makes it necessary to range anything out beyond 125 yards. You don't always have time for that.
 
The 45cal barrel upgrades turn the MLII into a whole other animal. Ive got one with a Pacnor 45cal barrel. The rage now is a Brux 45cal barrel for very close to the same price as a Pacnor but its cut rifled instead of button rifled. After market 50cals are also available but not often stocked.

275gr bullet over 2700fps is pretty much a piece of cake with these 45cal barrels. Thats not even max.

Im super surprised the SuperGlide sabots works for you. Those are tiny loaded OD and smokeless likes a pretty snug fitting sabot. The MLII is often a little on the large side.
 
Im betting ~80% plus of those "catastrophic failures" and internet photos/etc. Can be directly traced to intentionally overloading just for the bad publicity from disgruntled ex "pro staffers" :think:
 
I kinda wondered about that. That's kinda what RW was saying in a lot of the stuff I read. The other thing that was odd I noticed, most of the bulges seemed to be a lot farther up the bore than a standard load would be.
I will have to look into those other barrels, that has really piqued my curiosity. That would be pretty flat shooting for a front stuffer.
 
Squeeze said:
Im betting ~80% plus of those "catastrophic failures" and internet photos/etc. Can be directly traced to intentionally overloading just for the bad publicity from disgruntled ex "pro staffers" :think:

That is my guess also. Many people don't realize that William (Bill) Ball runs a gun shop in NC. I imagine he could shed some light on RW's comments if he wanted. He may still offer MLII accurizing also.

I will have to look into those other barrels, that has really piqued my curiosity. That would be pretty flat shooting for a front stuffer.

If you have a Savage barrel nut wrench its fairly simple to swap them out. Might as well get a new lug at the same time and bed the stock. Smokelessmz and Hankins Custom Rifle both offer these barrels for right around $450ish. They also have a improved plug design that uses a tungsten bushing instead of a vent liner. Sealing surface at the rear of the plug too.

http://www.arrowheadsporting.com/prefitbarrels.html

https://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/muz ... -in-stock/
 
Is there load data for those barrels? I'm seriously gonna check into that.
 
sdporter said:
Is there load data for those barrels? I'm seriously gonna check into that.

TONS of load data with pressure traces. 4198 is probably the most commonly used since its cheap, dependable and pressures are reasonable.
 
what is the best length in these aftermarket barrels? Isn't the Savage stock barrel 28?
 
You can get a 45cal upto 30" from Hankins. Its not cut until you order. I think the ones at Smokelessmz are 26". OEM Savage was 24" (i think) and the BassPro smoker version was 26". Mine is a 27" Pacnor. 25"-28" will do just fine for most people and most powders. I think Hankins offers them in both 1-18 and 1-20 twist. I would go 1-20 if you plan on shooting sabots too. These barrels are mainly intended to shoot sabotless so get the adjustable sizing die with the barrel.

Large Shank
1.120X5 tapers to .900 at 30 inches
1.120X5 tapers to .800 at 30 inches
1.120X5 tapers to .700 at 30 inches

Small Shank
1.055X5 tapers to .900 at 30 inches
1.055X5 tapers to .800 at 30 inches
1.055X5 tapers to .700 at 30 inches
Price: $440.00
These Savage Pre-Fit barrels are available in either small or large shank and come with a 209 breech plug of your choice. When ordered, the barrel will be cut and crowned to your specified length up to 30 inches.
 
Are you able to shoot sabotless with them? I was kinda under the impression conicals were a no-no??? I haven't called them yet. Need to scrape together some $$$ into the fun fund first. What is the sizing die used for? Sorry, I'm not new to muzzleloading, but I am to muzzleloading with smokeless powder. There's a lot I have no idea about.
 
Sabotless jacketed bullets. Ive shot lead conicals in mine also but with BH209. Works fine.

The sizing die is adjustable so you can get the bullets to fit just right. They will load as easy or easier than a sabot when you get the hang of it.
 
Its odd how all the pics in the article are from a case in 2009. Its lists the powder weight but just says 1 bullet. It does not say what bullet.
 
Oldbill- Sorry but we do prohibit discussion of shooting smokeless powder in non smokeless muzzleloaders.
 
I know this thread is a little on the old side. I threw caution to the wind yesterday and took the old Savage out. Shot about twenty five loads through it. I put a Nikon MK-1 on it and am really pleased with the results. I was shooting 5744 and shot four, 3 shot groups after I got the thing on paper, swabbing between groups. I was shooting the TC Shockwave 250 grain. I fired 44, 43, 42, 41 grain groups. The only group the gun didn’t like was 43 grains. It was about 2.5 inches at 100 yards. The others were 1”- 1.375” with 42 and 44 grains being the smallest at around 1”. I’m gonna order some MMP sabots and try some different bullets to see if I can tighten it up a little more. I also shot one group of the Hornady FPB 300 grain at 43 grains of 5744. They loaded perfectly I thought, just 10 pounds or so pressure to push them down. They shot about 6” though. I didn’t try any other powder charges with them. Has any body else shot these bullets from their Savage? And how did they do?
 
The hollow base is probably being damaged. Smokeless is a bit hot for that type of bullet. 5744 spikes pressure pretty fast vs many other powders. Plus full bore projectile with smokeless are not approved by Savage. Its right in the manual.

If i was going to shoot full bore it would probably be the Fury 325gr StarTip and some H4198. Much less peak pressure than 5744 and a much better bullet. This load is NOT approved by Savage.
http://www.furycustombullets.com/webapp ... zle-loader
GetImage
 
Duly noted. I spoke with the gal, I think Connie, at MMP this morning and have ordered some sabots to try, can’t find anything here in southern Utah other than Hornady SST, Barnes, and the TC. She was surprised as were others on this forum that the TC worked at all in the gun. They make the sabot for the TC and indicated it mic’s out loaded at 504 or so and the barrel on the savage runs 507-508. I didn’t run any through a chrono so they might be just kinda toodling along. I’ll just wait for the sabots to get here before I go out again.
 

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Ive never heard of a Savage land to land being anywhere near .507. Around .504 tops is the largest ive heard about and thats not common. The largest sabot is around .509 loaded OD. All but 2 are .506 or less. Best accuracy for me has almost always been a sabot that is around .003-.004 over lands. Nothing smaller has ever shot worth a hoot in any of my MLs.

SuperGlide sabot is one of the smallest of them all. Around .501 or less last time i measured one. .504 is the HPH-24.
 
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