Poll--What is the Primary Cause of Blackhorn Ignition Issues

I'm still on the fence with low power primer versus improper breech plug design (in my mind) but I've been able to use BH209 in my grandson's Knight LK-II using #11 percussion caps. I use enough Triple 7 FFF powder to fill the flash channel in the breech plug (about 8 grains by weight if I recall) and then pour 50 grains of BH209 by volume (35 grains by weight) on top of that. I use a 155gr Barnes .40 handgun bullet along with some blue polymer tips that I got from Barnes (the one on the right). Ignition is immediate, no smoke, no recoil, and just under 1500 fps. I'm waiting to see what it does on a deer some day. He's limited to 50 yards until I'm confident he can shoot further.

I have read and learned alot about BH209 from many of you guys here and other sites. Based on my limited experience actually using BH209 leads me to think that most of the time its either improper breech plug design, or a plugged up flame channel that would cause the majority of ignition problems.
I'm sure I could be wrong, but it seems that a few of the much more seasoned folks here have shown that it doesn't take a super hot primer or a super tight load to ignite the powder consistently. Always learning, good to hear these different opinions.

The only problem i had with 209 was when i first started using it I would get a thump bullet meaning it came out of barrel so slow i could almost see it...but come to find out I did not seat the bullet good enough..was told 209 like to be packed tight...after that i seated them firm and no more problems....I clean breech after about 20 shots..or put my spare in and soak the other one...my Knights dont get as dirty as my CVA's...

Al-53 said:

The only problem i had with 209 was when i first started using it I would get a thump bullet meaning it came out of barrel so slow i could almost see it...but come to find out I did not seat the bullet good enough..was told 209 like to be packed tight...after that i seated them firm and no more problems....I clean breech after about 20 shots..or put my spare in and soak the other one...my Knights dont get as dirty as my CVA's...

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It still comes back to the basic principle - Black Horn problems are related to the learning curve of using BH. Once you master the curve rarely do you have problems shooting the powder.

Al-53 said:

The only problem i had with 209 was when i first started using it I would get a thump bullet meaning it came out of barrel so slow i could almost see it...but come to find out I did not seat the bullet good enough..was told 209 like to be packed tight...after that i seated them firm and no more problems....I clean breech after about 20 shots..or put my spare in and soak the other one...my Knights dont get as dirty as my CVA's...

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In my limited use, I seated my bullets down just as every bullet I've ever shot out of any gun with any powder. No idea how much pressure I use...not a bunch or pressure, but not light either. I wonder what would be considered not enough pressure?

SL, you are probably right. Its a little different, so there is a learning curve. I'm sure I'll bump into some problems at some point being inexperienced...but that's what I have you guys for! :mrgreen:

Today, all these years later, i can still recall the 'learning curve' i went through when trying to learn how to tie my shoes. Learning curves apply to everything, do they not? Reading, writing, arithmetic, driving, changing tires, shooting black powder, shooting 777, all/everything have/had learning curves.

ronlaughlin said:

Today, all these years later, i can still recall the 'learning curve' i went through when trying to learn how to tie my shoes. Learning curves apply to everything, do they not? Reading, writing, arithmetic, driving, changing tires, shooting black powder, shooting 777, all/everything have/had learning curves.

Click to expand...

But the valid problems you list still come back to the fact once you master the learning curve of shooting BH all of the valid thoughts on the list go away.

People might have issues with BH for many reasons but again once you learn the problem and solve it the problem normally goes away. If you apply the normal things needed for shooting a smokeless-progressive burning powder weather it is in a shell or in a barrel you will shoot BH just fine.

In fact a couple of things on the list probably have no effect at all on IGNITION of the powder.

Nothing on your list has been a problem for me and I do not even use it that much...

Mike,
Am not sure i understand what you wrote, but that is OK. Basically, all i wrote, is everything in life has a "learning curve". So it doesn't make sense to say the 'primary cause' of Blackhorn issues is the 'learning curve'. Tying my shoes for the first time, was far harder for me, than shooting Blackhorn the first time. 'Learning curve' didn't need to be a choice in the poll, it is understood, it is part of everything we do, as we grow.


For me there was really no "learning curve" shooting Blackhorn. All i did was get a bottle at the store, pour some in my rifle, shove a bullet on top of the Blackhorn, prime the plug with a standard shotgun primer, and BOOM. All because i owned an Omega i guess, just the luck of the draw.

Ironically, when i first tried 777 is when i experienced the most grief. The only powder to be found in town was 30g pellets of 777. Unbeknownst to me, the 30g pellets were stuck together, so what i thought was a 90g load, was actually a 180g load. Then the crud ring formed right away. By the third shot i had to pound the ram rod in the rifle, against a tree to get the bullet to the powder. After that adventure things kinda got better. Even so, every now and then, the wet patch used to swab between shots plugged the flash hole with that blue TC 17 stuff, and there was a misfire. In all actuality, the 777 "learning curve" for me, was quite a trial. Switching from 777 to Blackhorn was a breeze.

For me, shooting Blackhorn has been a pleasant uneventful experience, compared to my first days, shooting 777.

You were fortunate that your first experience with BH was in an Omega. Which for a long time and you said on the forum many times Western Powders recommended the Omega style BP as the best. Somewhere along the line you looked and educated yourself that Western said the Omega style plug was the best and the Omega action was the desired type closed action. So you educated yourself - worked on the learning curve just gaining that knowledge. Everything you have done in life required a learning curve. When we first suggested to you that a larger flash channel would aid in the ability of shooting BH - you really didn't agree. When I first modified a Triumph breech plug by drilling it out and installing a vent liner you were skeptical of that mostly because of the length of the plug. When I first explained the length and size of the flash channel actually helped control the amount of blowback pressure on the nose of the primer as I remember you were not really receptive of that either... but yet today through your self education or understanding you have become a master of BP's. All of that did not just happen it was you learning and developing a learning curve.

And I still maintain there is a learning curve to shoot BH correctly and most of the items you have listed are in that learning curve.

That about says it all Mike. One disagreement.... a master of plugs i am not.

Flash hole size. I have successfully modified several breech plugs with typical "hang fire" issues with BH209 by simply opening up the flash hole up to .031-.033 (from .027-.029)range using a wire drill set and pin vise.

I think another factor is the primer's size.....Even though the cci209m or fed209a are slightly hotter, the win W209 works best in my experience as it's the tallest/tightest sealing with the least carbon buildup. Keeping the flash channel carbon free is another BIG factor...

But that is only true for your particular breechplug design. With another primer pocket, another primer might be better than the one that works for you. So breechplug design combined with primer design is really the issue you are talking about

tpcollins said:

I understand a proper breech plug design is necessary for BH209 to supposedly eliminate "blow back". But I'm under the impression that BH209 requires a hot primer to ignite a tightly packed charge. But which scenario would cause a misfire the most:

- a hot primer igniting a tightly packed charge but with a poor design breech plug

or

- a low temp primer with a loose powder charge but with a proper breech plug design

Click to expand...

I forwarded this thread to Western Powders and got this reply from Don W:


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Tim,
I would have to agree with your findings. But you may also want to add residue build up in the breech plug.

Don W.
CSR Western Powders
406-234-0422


I think my post leaned more towards improper primer and less towards breech plug design, or at least that's what I took from his response - ymmv.

Why did Western Powders redesign the QRBP?

Why do a jillion of us regularly use non-magnum primers when shooting Blackhorn, without ignition issues?

Why do folks regularly give me money to modify their breech plugs when they wish to shoot Blackhorn powder without ignition issues?

Why have several of us, when using sabot that are obviously too loose, never had ignition issues when burning Blackhorn?

Why can my rifles continue to successfully shoot Blackhorn, when the breech plug channel is so very clogged, a 1/16" drill doesn't fit?

Why?

Don't shoot the messenger, why not ask Don W at Western Powders these questions? I don't think a magnum primer is mandatory, it's the low charged primer that's not satisfactory.

Sorry; wasn't aiming at you. No need for me to ask Don W; i don't seek the answers.

My NULA can and will ignite BH209 each and every time with a standard CCI209.

My Knights with a Lehigh plug will ignite BH209 each and every time with a Win209.

My Savage Pacnor will ignite BH209 each and every time with a Win209 or Fed209A. This included a easy loading Parker 275gr BE shot sabotless and 460gr+ slip fit conicals. Both shot with .460 veggie wads.

It doesn't seem to matter if its the first shot or the 20th shot. Ive gone as high as 40+ shots in the Knight/Lehigh plug but i would not advise it.

What does seem to matter is a good plug design and a very good primer fit which has almost no blowby. Is there a benefit to a tight fitting projectile...maybe....My 54cal shoots best with a very tight fitting sabot when im using a heavy powder load. My 45cal Accura shot insanely well with a very loose 300gr Powerbelt. Loose sabots though shot poorly compared to an average fitting sabot.

Not that I know very much at all, but I chose: "bullet to loose"
And based it on this. I was / am using a Knight bare primer breech plug with the brazed in vent, in a Disc Extreme, and Win 209 primer, with Harvester sabots of either smooth or crush rib it shoots fine.
But when trying Hornady FPB (and a lightweight Power Belt or two) bore size bullets I got failure to fire.
When I tried adding a .50 caliber felt wad under the Hornady FPB, no more failures, and accuracy was good!

Sorry, but I thought this was fitting for this topic. :mrgreen: