jag stuck in breech plug space

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Any help much appreciated. Brand new cva optima v2. Shooting at range. Loaded 45 hornady pistol bullet in crush rib sabot on 80 grains of blackhorn. Guns first shot! Before loading id fired a couple of cci mag 209 primers. Pulled trigger and a misfire. Unscrewed plug ran cleaning jag down toward muzzle. Everything came right out. Hadnt fired another cap because my range rod mark showed that (?) bit of powder had maybe ignited so figured ditch this load and start over. With barrel now clear wanted to run a cleaner patch thru but this time used rod with hornady loading tip on end. Patch had some blue moon bore cleaner on it for lube but to end this story hornady tip is stuck down toward end of barrels breech plug threads. Put some anti seize lube down to lube it but now cant get rod to screw back on tip thats down there. Tried pushing it back out breech with a rod and jag from muzzle end. Its really in there and dont want to force it too much. The cleaning patch is a large one but could it be that? Never had problem before with those patches but they do make the cleaning jag tight in the bore but nothing major. Any help appreciated.
 
You should be able to push it one way or the other.. About the only explanation I can figure is the shank (threaded) part of the jag is angled into a rifling groove and wedged somehow. (guess) either try something like a ball puller for the longer point to push it, or after the breechplug is out, just go in from the barrel end and try a few good raps with your palm. Rangerod would be better for this. Try not to let the tips come unscrewed from the rod while in use. I am always rethreading them on. After a patch or two, they always seem to self unscrew just from riding the rifling.
 
Clarification. Hornady loading tip/jag with patch was started through breech end so as to push any powder grains remaining out through muzzle so wouldnt fall into action. Now stuck in about inch and half to two inches. Stuck loading jag is 50 cal. like rifle.
 
yeah...thats kind of the way it usually goes..your pretty much going to have to push it all out through the breech and deal with cleaning the mess (powder) Its not impossible to go the other way, but it would probably take first pulling the bullet with a screw type ball puller, then use it or a patch worm or scraper to loosen the powder, and work out the jag, then swab with patches..
 
LoveSabots said:
Clarification. Hornady loading tip/jag with patch was started through breech end so as to push any powder grains remaining out through muzzle so wouldnt fall into action. Now stuck in about inch and half to two inches. Stuck loading jag is 50 cal. like rifle.
I would think you should be able to see the threads on the jag since it was started from the breech end. Sounds like the jag cocked and hung up where the threads for the breech plug starts and the lands and grooves begin. I would try to get a look at the threaded part of the jag and see if it is still straight in line with the bore, If it is then you may need to use a longer range rod or just a long solid brass or aluminum rod (about 3/8 or so in diameter) put in from the muzzle to tap the jag back out. I would really try to get a look at the jag threads to make sure it is lined up first.

While I understand your like of thinking in going this route, I would recommend that if you need to do that in the future to wrap a rag around the action and then remove the BP and push it out the breech end. If you get the rag wrapped good it should prevent the powder from mucking up the action.
 
Thank you, ShawnT and Squeeze. I was unavoidably coming to the same conclusion, and so put a range rod with cleaning jag down muzzle and put that jag and the stuck jag head to head and tapped and rapped a few times with heel of hand, each time a bit harder. It didn't take too hard before the stuck jag, completely covered by the patch, popped out. I thought, good, the threads in the barrel are ok, but the breech plug, though lubed with anti-seize, wouldn't go in the last half or so inch, no way. It was the only way, I'm sure, to have gotten it out, but I've got no one to blame but myself.

Ironic, too, because when I clean my inlines I always go down the muzzle and clean the breach plug area separately with a brush after I remove the plug to clean it separately. ShawnT, if happens again, a misfire, I'll do as you say to remove the load. Bad move to insert rod through the breech, and that brings me to another facet of this, and I know it sounds like sour grapes, but....

Called CVA and a very polite guy heard my story, and told me I should send the gun to their repair facility in Duluth, Georgia, so off she went packed in her original box and that in another box. I felt like crying, grown man that I am, but there she went. I don't know what they're going to do. But the breech threads had to have been damaged by my own stupidity. But...

the other facet, and that's this whole need another plug, the special Blackhorn 209 plug to shoot BH powder. I had called CVA a couple of weeks ago because I had read that this plug was necessary, and I researched on the net, and on the Western Powders site. I also have Traditions and T/C inlines and they shoot BH great. So called CVA a few weeks ago and asked about this. Another guy there told me, no, if you keep the flash channel clean you don't have to have the special plug. So went to range today with BH even though a little voice was telling me to take the Pyrodex instead. And then the misfire. The guy today at CVA said, yes, the special plug is not only bigger in the channel, but configured differently, too, so it'll ignite BH. He also said I'd need the BH 209 plug to shoot any kind of pellets, too. I'd also called Traditions and T/C too a few weeks ago, and they told me no way did their guns need a separate plug, and I'd been using BH in them with great success anyway, just checking.

Why is it only CVA that needs this BH 209 plug, and why haven't they incorporated them into their new guns? I guess with their standard plug I can shoot only loose Pyrodex. No pellets of any kind. I actually prefer loose powder, but a month ago bought some T7 and Pyrodex pellets just to try them out. But I guess I won't be using them in the CVA when she comes back. Now for the big admission. I really fell for the little CVA Wolf for my son, and for a CVA Accura V2 a couple of weeks ago, and bought both! So it's not like I'm some cheapskate not willing to invest in the special plugs, but I learned a valuable lesson today. The Wolf and Accura have not been fired yet, but guess which powder, and guess in non-pelletized form, is going to the range with us for their virgin shootings. You guessed it, Pyrodex! Wish CVA would just put the special plugs on their new guns, because the guy today there said that plug supersedes their standard plug, and shoots everything. No need for the standard if you get the BH 209 plug. Thanks for the opportunity to get some free therapy here, and excuse long post.

But what are they going to do with my Optima V2 at the factory? How can the breech threads be repaired? Doesn't it need a new barrel? Just want the gun to be safe. I included a note describing my asinine mistake going up the breech, and told them I'd pay for a new barrel if necessary.
 
I kind of doubt there was really much damage in the BP threads. Probably just dirty. Depending on the damage, they will probably just clean it, or try to clean up the threads first. I shoot a lot of Blackpowder, from a bunch of different guns, and really only 1-2 use BH powder, and even those not always. If you look around at the guys who really shoot a lot, not many always use BH powder. Main reason the cost. either Se7en or Swiss brand "real" Blackpowder are pretty comparible in "hotness" or speed/power of similar size loads.(and second in power) The whole no swabbing argument is kind of lost on me, I swab as rule between every shot. It was just a habit I was taught when I learned BP shooting. It keeps the barrel to (as much as possible) a constant in fouling, eliminating another variable for accuracy. You can get 1-2 or even 3 reloads in a hunting situation with almost any powder without swabbing. I see no great increase in accuracy with BH. If so, I can match it for speed/accuracy with pretty much any powder by adjusting loads. You have to clean any gun same day you use it, and BH heats a barrel worse than anything in my opinion, so while your sitting there waiting for barrel cooldown between shots, why not swab? it helps cooldown, and its always a good habit to practice anyway. Some guys swab every 3-5 shots depending on gun/load, everyone will have their own routine. Dont be sold on the "I have to use BH powder" Sure lots of guys swear by it, But half of the keyboard cowboys just repeat what they heard online. You can get the job done just as well with plenty of powders. BH, Se7en, pyrodex. any real black~ all good (I havent seen any of the lesser quality blacks for sale anywhere in quite a few years) White hots I really dont use, and american pioneer, shockeys gold~ not so good, very inconsistent in grain size and chrono speeds ( these are all my personal opinions, others will vary) I use all strictly loose powder, no pellets. #1 reason, you can fine tune a load to a gun much easier/better, you not just stuck to 30-50 grn increments. Its cheaper, and If you crack a pellet on seating the bullet, it affects accuracy. In my opinion too easily done, and just another unnecessary variable added to the possibility of failure.
 
Sorry about your issues with the stuck plug.

I shot the standard breech plug in my CVA Apex for a while with BH209 and never had a problem until one cold December day with a nice 8 pt buck in my sights and the gun went PSSSSSSST, no fire. I ordered the BH plug from CVA a few days later and have had no problems since. The way I understand it is, the standard plug is for pellets only and the BH plug is for loose powder. The loose powder plug has a deep powder pocket and shorter flash channel, which is very similar to TC's omega and impact plug designs.

Lots of good info. at the BH209 website if you haven't visited it yet
http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/ignition-guidelines/
 
Squeeze said:
I kind of doubt there was really much damage in the BP threads. Probably just dirty. Depending on the damage, they will probably just clean it, or try to clean up the threads first. I shoot a lot of Blackpowder, from a bunch of different guns, and really only 1-2 use BH powder, and even those not always. If you look around at the guys who really shoot a lot, not many always use BH powder. Main reason the cost. either Se7en or Swiss brand "real" Blackpowder are pretty comparible in "hotness" or speed/power of similar size loads.(and second in power) The whole no swabbing argument is kind of lost on me, I swab as rule between every shot. It was just a habit I was taught when I learned BP shooting. It keeps the barrel to (as much as possible) a constant in fouling, eliminating another variable for accuracy. You can get 1-2 or even 3 reloads in a hunting situation with almost any powder without swabbing. I see no great increase in accuracy with BH. If so, I can match it for speed/accuracy with pretty much any powder by adjusting loads. You have to clean any gun same day you use it, and BH heats a barrel worse than anything in my opinion, so while your sitting there waiting for barrel cooldown between shots, why not swab? it helps cooldown, and its always a good habit to practice anyway. Some guys swab every 3-5 shots depending on gun/load, everyone will have their own routine. Dont be sold on the "I have to use BH powder" Sure lots of guys swear by it, But half of the keyboard cowboys just repeat what they heard online. You can get the job done just as well with plenty of powders. BH, Se7en, pyrodex. any real black~ all good (I havent seen any of the lesser quality blacks for sale anywhere in quite a few years) White hots I really dont use, and american pioneer, shockeys gold~ not so good, very inconsistent in grain size and chrono speeds ( these are all my personal opinions, others will vary) I use all strictly loose powder, no pellets. #1 reason, you can fine tune a load to a gun much easier/better, you not just stuck to 30-50 grn increments. Its cheaper, and If you crack a pellet on seating the bullet, it affects accuracy. In my opinion too easily done, and just another unnecessary variable added to the possibility of failure.

Great info Squeeze. I shoot BH too but shoot much more Pyrodex. I can get the Pyrodex easier and cheaper than 777 or BH. They all have good and bad points. As Squeeze said if you are in the habit of swabbing between shots like a lot if us old sidelock shooters are then it is really no big deal and already a habit.

Sorry to here about the threads, live and learn sometime the hard way. :wink: I'm with Squeeze, I doubt the threads were buggered much. May have been powder or some slight rolling of a thread or two creating a burr. A tap may have been all that is needed to fix it and may be all CVA needs to do if not just cleaning. Were you able to see the threaded part of the jag before attempting to tap it out? If you don't have one, a good nylon round brush to twist in the breech plug threads is something you should add to your shooting box.

I do not have one of the new CVA's but one thing I noticed above is you did not mention what 209 Primer you tried in the standard plug. Some have reported issues igniting BH with all primers using the standard plug and others have just switched to a hotter primer and no problems. My nephew has an older CVA Wolf that requires a wrench to remove the plug. He loves the rifle and it really does shoot great with a Harvester Crush Rib and Hornady 300gn XTP. He is using the 777 pellets too, have not been able to get him to switch too loose but he just likes to hunt with it and is not really into shooting it for target shooting.
 
Great info, Shawn, Squeeze, and BuckDoeHunter. I was using CCI 209M primers and also have used Federal 209A primers. And, yeah, that's the irony of all this. I do have breech plug brushes and am a clean the same day freak, and keep the flash channel clean and avoid getting the rod even into the breech. Shawn, if I ever misfire again you can bet I'll wrap the action and exit the load with the rod down the muzzle end as you advised. Good info on the powders, Squeeze. I've decided that I'm going to shoot loose Pyrodex and though I haven't tried it yet, loose Triple 7 in the CVAs, and save the BH for my Impact and Prohunter FX and Traditions rifles. In fact, I've never shot Pyrodex in the Traditions or T/Cs, and I think this incident has broadened my horizons. I got so used to Pyrodex for my traditional percussion cap guns that I latched onto BH exclusively for the T/Cs and Traditions, which have shot it right on, and trusted that my Optima V2 would, too. Now I know what to use for my son's new Wolf and the Accura V2, that's for sure. Now excited to try Pyrodex in the Traditions and T/Cs, too.

A question about loose Triple 7. Will it ignite readily with those two primers in all my guns? Looking forward to trying it.
 
Either shoot the real stuff like swiss, kik, blackdiamond or goex or just go ahead and go SML. The subs for black are just a problem waiting to happen. Lived there for 40 years and in 07 got my 1st Savage MLII and have never looked back. JM$.02. W
 
Woofer, that's been exactly what I've been mulling over and researching on the net: blackpowder. I do like Pyrodex and Blackhorn, and want to try Triple 7, but I'd sure like to try black powder. It looks like Swiss is a good one, and isn't any more expensive than BH. The Swiss sells by the pound, but you get only ten ounces of BH.

I found a couple of suppliers. Is there a place or two you know of where I could buy a few pounds of black powder? That would REALLY enlarge my horizons and make the possibilities even more fun.

Please recommend a place or two for, say, the Swiss, or any other black powder you like and use and recommend. Thanks, Woofer.
 
LoveSabots said:
Great info, Shawn, Squeeze, and BuckDoeHunter. I was using CCI 209M primers and also have used Federal 209A primers. And, yeah, that's the irony of all this. I do have breech plug brushes and am a clean the same day freak, and keep the flash channel clean and avoid getting the rod even into the breech. Shawn, if I ever misfire again you can bet I'll wrap the action and exit the load with the rod down the muzzle end as you advised. Good info on the powders, Squeeze. I've decided that I'm going to shoot loose Pyrodex and though I haven't tried it yet, loose Triple 7 in the CVAs, and save the BH for my Impact and Prohunter FX and Traditions rifles. In fact, I've never shot Pyrodex in the Traditions or T/Cs, and I think this incident has broadened my horizons. I got so used to Pyrodex for my traditional percussion cap guns that I latched onto BH exclusively for the T/Cs and Traditions, which have shot it right on, and trusted that my Optima V2 would, too. Now I know what to use for my son's new Wolf and the Accura V2, that's for sure. Now excited to try Pyrodex in the Traditions and T/Cs, too.

A question about loose Triple 7. Will it ignite readily with those two primers in all my guns? Looking forward to trying it.
The CCI209M is a magnum primer and it and the Fed209A at the hottest primers. So if you could not ignite BH with those then the other Breech plug may be the way to go with BH.

777 is no harder to ignite than Pyrodex. We still lite them both off in #11 cap plunger inlines. You should be able to switch to the cooler 209s like the Win209 and Rem STS for the subs and black, it you want, that real hot primer is not needed with the subs and Black. Some really hate Pyrodex but it has never given me a problem. You just have to clean & lube it when finished shooting for the day, but you need to do that with 777 or even Black. Some say Pyrodex is more corrosive than any of the others, is that true?.. I have no idea but it will not stop me from using it. The bore on my main MK-95 has shot Pyrodex, in one form or another, for 16 years and still looks new. I did not like the crud ring I got with 777 and found it a bit less with Pyrodex, but I still swab between shots so don't really cause me any grief either way. If I could not get Pyrodex but could get 777 I would shoot it and not loose any sleep over it. :wink:
 
Thanks, Shawn. My son and I went to range yesterday with CVA Wolf with Vortex Diamondback scope, both brand new. Learned my lesson about BH in CVAs with the standards plug, so took Pyrodex Select. Wow and wow. Shot Pyrodex in my traditional percussion cap rifles a lot but never in inlines. We shot 240 grain Scorpion Golds in Harvester crush ribs. Sighted in scope at 50 yds. Then 75 and then took it to 100. Shot like a dream. Moved up to 85 grains of Pyrodex from 75 grains for the 100 yds. shots. Shot a lot. I know these are modest loads, but still a wallop. Not much adjustment needed on scope. I see no reason at all to use BH in my CVAs. Very pleased with Pyrodex and cleanup of bore and breech plug was easy. Did swap between shots but a couple of times didn't just to see and still loaded easy. By the way, I really like the loading jag the company supplies with its Scorpions. Doubtful at first because it's plastic, but very sturdy, and crush ribs load very easy. When my Optima V2 gets back it's nothing but Pyrodex for her. I'll use the BH in my T/Cs and Traditions, but will use Pyrodex in them, too. Thanks for the help and info.
 

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