primer issues in ultra lite

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sagebrush

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i have shot around 100 rounds thru this gun with not issue until today been using w209 primers now they are indicting signs of high pressure getting stuck on the bolt face. this is the same load that I shot last weekend with no problems. been shooting 110 grains b209 all the time. anyways tried two different lots of ww209's and some federal 209a all the same results. i'm inclined to think that i have a problem with the bolt on the gun. you can see that they are bulging out and getting stuck on the bolt face


 
sagebrush

Just out of curiosity have you cleaned out the flash channel in the breech plug with a 5/32" drill bit turned by hand. After 30-40 shots the channel can become virtually plugged causing pressure to blow back against the primer. Also check the flash hole itself to insure that it is still between .031 and .034 in diameter.

I also would suggest you continue shooting W209's they do not fill the flash channel as fast as the Mag primers do.

When you were shooting the W209's when it was knew were the primers coming out clean?
 
I clean out the breech plug with a drill bit and the flash hole with a nipple wire fm lyman after each session I shoot probably around 40 rounds at a time.

the w209's are the only ones that shoot the best with this rifle and come out clean in like new condition. today they still came out clean but where getting stuck also my shots were a little more opened today from my last time out which was last week.

if you are gonna say the breech plug is bad after 100 rounds then I cant see keeping this rifle.
 
sagebrush said:
I clean out the breech plug with a drill bit and the flash hole with a nipple wire fm lyman after each session I shoot probably around 40 rounds at a time.

It would be my suggestion to never put anything through the flash hole itself, most often it is not needed and just accelerates the erosion of the hole.

the w209's are the only ones that shoot the best with this rifle and come out clean in like new condition.

Excellent that is the way it should function with the W209 - the W209 is normally the longest primer you can get and the primer the rifle was designed to shoot. Other primers will be a little shorter and you will probably get some blow back in the breech area.

also my shots were a little more opened today from my last time out which was last week.

I know this is going to sound odd but how warm was it today while you were shooting (as compared to the last time out). Ambient temperature can be factor in your accuracy. When the temp climbs into the 70's the sabots become more pliable + the temp of the barrel especially shooting BH rises very rapidly. Often you will have to allow the barrel to cool to maintain the customary accuracy.

if you are gonna say the breech plug is bad after 100 rounds then I cant see keeping this rifle.

There is a good chance that is exactly what your problem might be but without measuring I would have no way of knowing. Do you have anyway of measuring the size?

It is not common for the flash hole to erode this quickly but sure can not say it is impossible. Also another possibility is the vent liner in your BP did not get harden to the degree that it was suppose to. I believer Vent Liners are hardened 100's at a time and it is possible this one and a few other did not get the heat they were suppose to.

Another thought... and I know this is not the best answer - but the next time this happens - the primer is stuck - open the bolt and close it snap the trigger again and the hammer will drive the primer back into the battery cup and the primer them should/might tip out. Although if the primer rails are not clean it still could stick.
 
My conclusion is that the primer is being blown back into the hole of the bolt. Why? Probably because the flash hole has enlarged. ( also explaine the change in accuracy ) A dry fire will solve the immediate problem. 100 shots seems like very few for this type of an issue.

I would contact Knight and ask for a new BP. FYI. I have shot hundreds of rounds from a Lehigh plug with the vent liner with no signs of erosion. Something is not adding up in this scenario.
 
If the breech plug in this rifle has a brazed vent liner, it doesn't surprise me at all that the flash hole has enlarged.

Twice i installed breech plugs with brazed in vent liners into 2 different Knight rifles. One was an Elite, the other was an Extreme. In both cases the flash hole eroded from 0.031" to 0.035" in about 100 shots. That really surprised me. Then i purchased a brand new Mountaineer, and the breech plug came with a brazed vent liner. The flash hole quickly grew to over 0.035". It seems to me the brazing process affects the durability of the vent liner somehow.The brazed in vent liners were still very very hard, and i dulled more than one cutting tool removing, and replacing them.

The solution is to replace the supplied breech plug with one of the after market plugs, with a removable vent liner. Someone around here is selling them.
 
ronlaughlin said:
If the breech plug in this rifle has a brazed vent liner, it doesn't surprise me at all that the flash hole has enlarged.

Twice i installed breech plugs with brazed in vent liners into 2 different Knight rifles. One was an Elite, the other was an Extreme. In both cases the flash hole eroded from 0.031" to 0.035" in about 100 shots. That really surprised me. Then i purchased a brand new Mountaineer, and the breech plug came with a brazed vent liner. The flash hole quickly grew to over 0.035". It seems to me the brazing process affects the durability of the vent liner somehow.The brazed in vent liners were still very very hard, and i dulled more than one cutting tool removing, and replacing them.

The solution is to replace the supplied breech plug with one of the after market plugs, with a removable vent liner. Someone around here is selling them.

well its seems this is what happened the plug will take a 0.035 wire and a vent liner i purchased from leigh awhile back is only 0.031...I happen to have a new breech plug from knight and it measures 0.0292 that sure is a big jump to 0.035 with only 100 shots. boy knight really has a market on these breech plugs.

well atleast i can shoot the extreme with the leigh breech plug I have.

would it help to google this aftermarket plug for the ultra and mountaineer?
 
is it possible to put a breech plug and bolt from a extreme into the barrel action of ultra and it will be fine?

to answer my own question yes it will fit and it does fire a primer.
 
sagebrush said:
is it possible to put a breech plug and bolt from a extreme into the barrel action of ultra and it will be fine?

to answer my own question yes it will fit and it does fire a primer.

Probably will not fire the primer correctly.. the breech hole in the Mountaineer series is 0.060 deeper so you need the taller BP.

Your BP is under warranty from Knight - the problem the real problem is contacting them - leave a phone message but be sure and do written contact on their web site....

And yes - as much as I hate to admit it there have been cases of a group of vent liners wearing that quickly. I THINK the problem was fixed a few months back, but they all look the same so there is know way to identify them.

You might try Lehigh... if Knight does not reply in a respectable amount of time...

http://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php/contact-lehigh

They may not be able to do anything about the problem but then again Lehigh Dave hates it when one of his products does not perform, but then again he may HAVE to have you contact Knight because of contract clauses...
 
ok thanks will contact both of them, would much rather have a breech plug with a replaceable vent liner
 
sagebrush said:
ok thanks will contact both of them, would much rather have a breech plug with a replaceable vent liner

I think a whole bunch of us would, but Savage owns the patent on it so Knight can not offer it that way...
 
sabotloader in regards to using a bolt and breech plug from an extreme on a mountaineer rifle you say that the mountaineer has a deeper chamber than the extreme. from what i did was screwed it in all the way until it bottomed out and using the bolt from the extreme it still fires a primer pretty good. it has a good indention on the primer.

im sure others have done the same has i have with the same results i just cant walk outside of my house and fire it off with powder and bullet. the nearest range is a 40 min drive to shoot at.
 
sagebrush said:
sabotloader in regards to using a bolt and breech plug from an extreme on a mountaineer rifle you say that the mountaineer has a deeper chamber than the extreme. from what i did was screwed it in all the way until it bottomed out and using the bolt from the extreme it still fires a primer pretty good. it has a good indention on the primer.

im sure others have done the same has i have with the same results i just cant walk outside of my house and fire it off with powder and bullet. the nearest range is a 40 min drive to shoot at.

I am surprised... when you get a chance take both BP's out and stand them beside each other. The Mountaineer plug should be taller than the Extreme plug. I believe you are able to pop the primer because it is held in place by the primer rails on the face of the bolt.... but... the primer should be no-where close to reaching the primer shelf in the Breech Plug, so when you actually shoot a load the may be a lot blow back.

So maybe you can close the bolt slowly and see how far the rails are from the top of the breech plug.
 
i'm using the lehigh conversion adapter on the bolt for bare primer ignition.
 
sagebrush said:
i'm using the lehigh conversion adapter on the bolt for bare primer ignition.

Well, maybe it will work... I have never tried it. I have the same set up in one of my ULites but I have the Mountaineer BP in the rifle...

Well OK that makes it easy to check.... take the primer adapter out of the bolt place a primer in the BP push it all the way down on the shelf, then put the bolt back in the rifle without the primer adapter - close the bolt and see if the primer is against the face of the bolt.

Verify for me you are saying that you have a Lehigh DISC breech plug in the rifle... If you get a chance also check and see that the two BP's are different in length...
 
using a disc breech plug with lehigh adapter ..just fired a couple of primers first one just fine second one had blow back..
 
sagebrush said:
using a disc breech plug with lehigh adapter ..just fired a couple of primers first one just fine second one had blow back..

To me that makes sense...

This shows the difference in length of the two plugs - DISC on the left

 
sabotloader said:
sagebrush said:
ok thanks will contact both of them, would much rather have a breech plug with a replaceable vent liner

I think a whole bunch of us would, but Savage owns the patent on it so Knight can not offer it that way...

looking at savage's web site this is their recommendation's. so i guess knight's breech plug isn't much different except you have to replace the whole thing.

Vent liner replacement frequency recommendation for a Savage Model 10ML-II muzzleloader:

When using:
Smokeless powder, we recommend every 100 shots
Pyrodex® or black powder, we recommend every 50 shots or less
 
sagebrush said:
sabotloader said:
sagebrush said:
ok thanks will contact both of them, would much rather have a breech plug with a replaceable vent liner

I think a whole bunch of us would, but Savage owns the patent on it so Knight can not offer it that way...

looking at savage's web site this is their recommendation's. so i guess knight's breech plug isn't much different except you have to replace the whole thing.

Vent liner replacement frequency recommendation for a Savage Model 10ML-II muzzleloader:

When using:
Smokeless powder, we recommend every 100 shots
Pyrodex® or black powder, we recommend every 50 shots or less

With the Lehigh/Knight breech plug and vent liner you should be able to get many more shots before the needed change. Although there was a few BP with softer vent liners that are only lasting 100-150 shots. But to my knowledge that problem has been corrected.
 
well my serial # ends in 070 looks like some of the first ones made i bought it last year here in utah most people in these parts are t/c only, they shrug their shoulders at a knight muzzy
 

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