Time to eat crow

Modern Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Modern Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

ENCORE50A

Long Range Shooter
Supporting member
*
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
7,424
Reaction score
8,034
Well you guys cook up the crow and I'll eat it. I have no problem admitting that I learned something new, that I originally thought different of.

I have received a good education why the Ultimate Firearm rifle and the new Remington Ultimate rifle, ARE NOT DESIGNED to shoot BH209. Also why BH should NOT be shot from them. Its not because the rifle won't shoot or handle BH, its the actual design of the ignition system, nipple design and brass cases used and the properties of BH.

I had shot BH from the Ultimate with no problems and excellent long rang accuracy. Although when shooting heavy charges of 135grs volume, the rifle shot better groups when swabbed every 3rd shot or so. During my last shooting session, I suddenly started getting considerable blowback. A lot of blowback! Something that had NEVER happened previously. My cases were terrible dirty. I cleaned the rifle barrel, then had my work cut out cleaning the chamber and action. When I checked out the nipple, it was clearly gas cut, BAD.


I took photos of the cases and shipped them off within an email to Ken Johnston, who promptly called me. Yesterday I met with Ken at his home and we proceeded to make what he thought would be a 30 minute replacement. Now I wasn't scolded but, I was educated why I shouldn't shoot BH from the Ultimate. I watched Ken remove the barrel, then attempt to remove the breech plug. It became very evident to me it wasn't going to happen. Try as Ken did, that breech plug was not going to be removed normally. The barrel then went into the lathe and it was drilled. After it was drilled, the first easy-out wouldn't remove the remaining plug threads so a larger easy-out was used. As I watched the process I fully expected to ante up for a new barrel. Finally the remaining plug was removed.


The barrel was cleaned and thoroughly inspected, then the new breech plug was installed. The rifle was reassembled, scope mounted and then handed to me while I was being told, "In the condition you first received it." As stated before, I wasn't scolded, I was educated why BH should not be used in the rifle, or the Remington Ultimate for that matter. Ken explained that he's replaced just three breech plugs prior to mine and EVERY ONE was because BH209 was shot from them. He told me that the replacement of a breech plug is extremely uncommon for him. It appears that any leak of gas when using BH in the UF or RU ignition systems, will immediately cut that nipple. Another reason that the brass have a life span of 3 to 4 primes.


There's no doubt going to be some negative feedback on this but, I'll try to put it this way........ If the person who developed and designed the ignition system, the IDENTICAL system used in both the UF rifle and the new Remington Ultimate rifle, states DO NOT use BH209 in that ignition system and, Remington itself is promoting shooting only pellets, there's a reason..........

As always, I had a great couple hours with Ken Johnston and also learned much more. I'm proud to call Ken a friend, hope he feels the same. I'm happy as hell to own one of his muzzleloaders.
 
That sure surprises me that Remington would put that much into a muzzleloader with the price they are,
in this day and age that will not shoot BH209.
That would be really good information to know before purchasing either of these muzzleloaders
 
Sorry for your pain but great customer service ! Can you use 777 powder also ?
 
Hmm, you just schooled us. What are you going to try next? Think I would try Swiss real black next :D I always liked the real black, and Swiss is the hottest, and most consistent
 
rwbaker said:
Sorry for your pain but great customer service ! Can you use 777 powder also ?

Yes. The rifle shoots its best with the recommended...... 3 - Triple Seven MAGNUM pellets. It will shoot loose T7, pyro or 2f.

Its the properties of BH209 and the ignition system which do not work well together.
 
Squeeze said:
Hmm, you just schooled us. What are you going to try next? Think I would try Swiss real black next :D I always liked the real black, and Swiss is the hottest, and most consistent

I'll continue to shoot the recommended load, short of trying different bullet/sabot combinations. Prior to changing out the XMark Pro trigger to a Timney, I shot a 5" group at 400yds. Not to shabby for pellets and a trigger I hated.
 
that is some great customer service from him. Knowing you shot something not recommended and he fixed it anyway.

Good for you for posting up the issues you encountered using it. Maybe it will stop somebody else from making the same mistake.
 
Glad I found this post. You just saved me $800. I'll stick with my 700ML conversion. :prayer:
 
AJ said:
Glad I found this post. You just saved me $800. I'll stick with my 700ML conversion. :prayer:
Myself also thank you.
 
Squeeze said:
Hmm, you just schooled us. What are you going to try next? Think I would try Swiss real black next :D I always liked the real black, and Swiss is the hottest, and most consistent

Big plus 1 - and Swiss has very dry, dusty fouling. Not BH dry but not far.
 
JStanley said:
Squeeze said:
Hmm, you just schooled us. What are you going to try next? Think I would try Swiss real black next :D I always liked the real black, and Swiss is the hottest, and most consistent

Big plus 1 - and Swiss has very dry, dusty fouling. Not BH dry but not far.

When shooting HEAVY charges of BH, its as dirty as any other propellant. Filthy actually.
 
The only semi bad fouling i get with BH209 is large amounts (120grV+) and sub 300gr bullets. The heavier bullets seemed to help get a better burn. Ive shot a max load in my 54-120 with a 385gr CLHP and the fouling was minimal. Sabotless 45s with 130grV+ was the most noticeable.
 
GM54-120 said:
The only semi bad fouling i get with BH209 is large amounts (120grV+) and sub 300gr bullets. The heavier bullets seemed to help get a better burn. Ive shot a max load in my 54-120 with a 385gr CLHP and the fouling was minimal. Sabotless 45s with 130grV+ was the most noticeable.

Bump it up to 100grs by weight (143grs V) with those 300gr bullets. You'll wonder if you were really shooting BH.
 
I've shot BH in almost everything just to try it and never had a breech plug stick :huh?: I never even grease the plugs when using BH. That just doesn't sound right to me. It even works in my MK-85 rifles. Never had flame cuts either. :huh?:
 
casper said:
I've shot BH in almost everything just to try it and never had a breech plug stick :huh?: I never even grease the plugs when using BH. That just doesn't sound right to me. It even works in my MK-85 rifles. Never had flame cuts either. :huh?:

My assumption is, you're talking about production rifles.

I was shooting 143grs volume of BH (100grs W) or, 180grs T7, which I'm shooting now.

Also the breech plug isn't what most consider normal. The breech plug face screws tight to a shoulder.

The Remington 700 Ultimate has the similar breech plug.

 
anaconda44 said:
Randy Wakeman is shooting bh 209 with out issues.?

RW was shooting BH out of a Remington 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader. The problem isn't shooting BH, as the barrel will certainly handle it. Its the brass and ignition system. If the brass is re-primed to many times, it will allow gas to escape between the brass and nipple, which will gas cut the nipple. I went round and round with him, asking questions that he just avoided (intentionally) answering, preferring to change to another issue. Legitimate questions that prospective buyers should know the answers to and he wouldn't answer them. Got me banned from his FB page for a couple weeks :lol: After calling him out on that in another forum, he reinstated my FB ability.

Problem with the RU, nobody is reporting reviews. I know of four rifles sold by one dealer, who asked for reviews from the purchasers. Nothing yet. However, the breech plug/nipple/BH209 issue must be real, as Remington is selling replacement breech plugs.
 
It sounds like a design flaw in the ignition system, more than a powder issue. :huh?:
 
casper said:
It sounds like a design flaw in the ignition system, more than a powder issue. :huh?:

Its not a design flaw, its operator error. The cases can only be reprimed a couple times. Look over the photo in a previous post. The bolt closes the case over an to the nipple. Each time it does so, it compresses the brass. When the seal becomes less tight, then gas will leak. I think Remington says up to 5 times primed. Ultimate Firearms Inc. recommends no more than three times.

What most don't understand, the entire design of the ignition system, was designed specifically for pellets.
 
I still don't see why it has anything to do with the powder used. I'm not arguing with you, I really don't get that part. :huh?:
 

Latest posts

Back
Top