3F powder use in modern muzzleloader

I know 3f powder s a finer powder than 2f and was told it is meant for pistols. Read that people are using them in ther long guns is there measuring differences between the 2 powders. Reason Im asking is all I can find right now is the 3f powder locally. 2 to 3 week wait for the 2f. Help

Rutnuts, 3F is just fine for any caliber from .32 through .60. I pretty much use GOEX FFFg (real black powder) in all of my guns - inlines and sidelocks in .45, .50, .54 and .58 calibers.

The same applies if you're talking about substitutes like Triple Seven. For sidelocks, most guys prefer FFF for easier ignition.

What gun/load have you been shooting. You can use the same volume load of FFF that you've been using in FF, but will get a bit higher velocity. If you lose accuracy with the higher velocity back the load down five or ten grains and see what happens.

while 3f works just fine in the long guns, and I do use it, there are some rifles that get just a touch better accuracy with 2f. So I have both on hand and use what ever the mood calls.

So what ur saying I could use 150 grs. off fff in my accura v2 just like I would use ff?

Yes. But I'm wondering why you're using such a massive load. Are you shooting real long distances? Is it extremely accurate. Most of my shots on deer are 150 yards or less, and the hunting load in my guns ranges from 85 to 110 grains depending on the gun. I've never gotten a real tight group with 150 grains, and who needs that kind of recoil anyway.

rutnuts said:

So what ur saying I could use 150 grs. off fff in my accura v2 just like I would use ff?

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You probably could (if the manufacturer allows it) but I would see no reason to do so. 120 would be a plenty for 99% of shooting. Unless your a long range junkie like some of the guys. And I can understand where they live they have to be able to shoot like that. But then others make the same kind of shots with less powder. When you figure out what your rifle likes, go for accuracy, not power.

rutnuts said:

So what ur saying I could use 150 grs. off fff in my accura v2 just like I would use ff?

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If you really are doing that (I smell a rat), you are definitely exceeding the limits set by Accura, and must have one hell of a recoil resistor! My current elk load is 90 gr of fff or 95 gr of ff. No need to go any higher.

As far as using FFG and FFFG, I read that FFFG is for pistols and .45 caliber and smaller muzzleloaders, it is a faster burning powder. FFG is mainly used for .50 Caliber and up. Some people experiment with FFFG in .50 caliber and larger muzzleloaders because it seems to be accurate for them, I don't think it is recommended by the manufactures of muzzleloaders. If you don't know what you are doing I would not fool around with experimenting with FFFG in larger caliber guns. JMO If you want to have a powerful load for you muzzleloader go to BH 209 for that Accura V2, use 100 grains to 120 grains of powder, recoil will not knock your teeth out either. Western Powders recommends a maximum load of 120 grains regardless of what the manufacture says your gun is rated for in other substitutes. Cleans up easier too, it is not very corrosive. You would need a CVA BH 209 breech plug for that Accura to shoot BH 209, I think you would like the upgrade. JMO

Sorry about that guys just giving an example of a load. Wont be shootimg that big of a load . Don't know what Im doing yet just wantedto know if I could get it done.

It appears to me that Hodgdon lists both 2FG and 3FG load data for 50cal. :huh?:
https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/muzzleloadi ... CKBOX_1=on

The CVA Accura V2 and T/C Pro Hunter manufactures recommendations say to use 2F in their guns. I don't think hodgdon can trump that with their 3FG load recommendations but maybe hodgdon will warrant its use in any gun. I am sure there are people who will possibly use hodgdon's 3FG load data in the Accura V2 and the T/C Pro Hunter, that is not to say that T/C or CVA will warrant any possible issues arising from using Hodgdon 3FG load data in their guns, which is not the mfg. recommended FFG. Every one that uses or modifies a muzzleloader contrary to mfg. specs. stands the chance of assuming all responsibility for anything adverse that happens. It doesn't matter that maybe they didn't understand that incurred responsibility, but that is how it is.

I'm using 777 3F in my Optima V2. 90 grains. Works real nice.

I have found that fffg powder works better with my sidelock (T/C renegade) when I am using 777 powder. I think it "makes the turn" better due to smaller granule size. But I have never exceeded 100 gr of loose powder

http://www.cva.com/pdf/AccuraV2%20Rifle ... -13%29.pdf

ONLY USE BLACKPOWDER RATED AS “FFG” IN YOUR CVA
BREAK ACTION RIFLE.
The use of other granulations may result in improper
burning or higher pressures. The use of genuine blackpowder is less common today
due to tight regulations regarding its storage and transportation.

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Each of the blackpowder substitutes have their own characteristics
and CVA recommends that you try several powder and bullet combinations to
see which one gives you the performance you are looking fo

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Interesting that they dont specify 2FG or 3FG when mentioning subs only real BP.

They do mention this which seems to be unique to CVA load data.

Do not use saboted bullets weighing over 300 grains in your CVA rifle

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Do not use lead conical bullets weighing over 400 grains in your CVA rifle

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CVA has found that, in terms of accuracy, cleanliness, and ease
of use, IMR® White Hots® is the best performing and most highly recommended
propellant for use in CVA muzzleloaders

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Better run out and get some Whitehots. :lol:

Implied, is one should try FFF, to see if it works good in one's particular, CVA rifle.

Is there a reason nearly 30kpsi of pellets is approved but far less peak PSI of T7 3FG would not be? Both T7 2FG and 3FG look pretty close in this chart? Real BP 3FG had even less peak PSI :huh?:

Copied from CVA Manual for Accura V2


BLACKPOWDER The term “blackpowder” refers to the formulation of the propellant, not the color. Most of the smokeless powders used in modern cartridge ammunition are also black in color but will cause dangerously high pressures. Blackpowder is available in several granulations which are rated according to the average size of each particle of powder. ONLY USE BLACKPOWDER RATED AS “FFG” IN YOUR CVA BREAK ACTION RIFLE. The use of other granulations may result in improper burning or higher pressures. The use of genuine blackpowder is less common today due to tight regulations regarding its storage and transportation. BLACKPOWDER SUBSTITUTES Safer and cleaner-burning substitutes for blackpowder have been developed and these are perfectly suitable for your CVA muzzleloader. Some of these are available in both granular and pelletized form. An important thing to remember is that individual rifles will perform differently with the same powder and bullet combinations. Each of the blackpowder substitutes have their own characteristics and CVA recommends that you try several powder and bullet combinations to see which one gives you the performance you are looking for. New blackpowder substitutes may be introduced after this manual is written. Please refer to the manufacturers written instructions for the specific propellant you are using. If you have technical questions regarding the propellant you are using, please contact the manufacturer’s customer service or technical department listed on the product label.

I don't think it says anything about trying 3FG in a CVA break action gun, Of course if one buys the gun I guess they don't have to take the manufactures recommendations. After all what do they know.

Yep, that is the SAME PDF i copied and pasted. Im not sure why it needed repeating. I posted the direct link to the CVA manual PDF.

Although were are not asking about T/C or Traditions, Traditions also INCLUDES Triple7 3FG in the 50cal load data. They actually reference Hodgdons load recommendations of 100gr of loose Pyro/T7 2FG or 3FG as max.

Please refer to the manufacturers written instructions for the specific propellant you are using. If you have technical questions regarding the propellant you are using, please contact the manufacturer’s customer service or technical department listed on the product label.

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Sounds to me like CVA wants you to ask the powder manufacturer. That would negate the use of 150gr of pellets then according to Hodgdon. Most of us know 3 pellet loads are usually lack luster at best in most MLs and only make your shoulder sore. The same can be said for 150gr by volume loads of loose in most guns/loads.

d.winsor said:

Copied from CVA Manual for Accura V2...

...Safer and cleaner-burning substitutes for blackpowder have been developed and these are perfectly suitable for your CVA muzzleloader. Some of these are available in both granular and pelletized form. An important thing to remember is that individual rifles will perform differently with the same powder and bullet combinations. Each of the blackpowder substitutes have their own characteristics and CVA recommends that you try several powder and bullet combinations to see which one gives you the performance you are looking for...

...I don't think it says anything about trying 3FG in a CVA break action gun....

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CVA implies one should try a FFF substitute right there in your manual. For certain, CVA doesn't say don't use FFF.

I copied the entire paragraph of what powder CVA recommends to use, picking and choosing portions of it doesn't make the meaning clear to me, I wanted it in print here so I would not get sidetracked, I know the link to the manual that is how I copied the paragraph. CVA does recommend to use 2F in their Break action guns, they also said if you had any questions about a powder to contact the Powder Manufacturer. If your interpretation of this is that CVA said to try 3F and since 2F is the recommended powder and there seems to some confusion as to what CVA is recommending, if I were you I would contact CVA for clarification or as stated the 3f powder manufacture you are thinking about and ask them about their load recommendations. There is already one 3F powder manufacture that has recommended loads for 3F in this thread as posted, evidently they are willing to put their experience with their powders on the line, use that brand they are already accepting liability. If anyone thinks CVA should put into print that they need to recommend 3F also in their manufactured gun Manual I would suggest taking that up with CVA, I think if CVA wanted anyone to Try 3F in their guns they would have clearly recommended it, just like they in no uncertain terms tell their customers under no circumstances to use smokeless powder in their manufactured guns, yet still some people have and do, I doubt that those people called the smokeless powder manufactures asking for load data.