Rifle Primers Six Month Review

It has been about 6 month since i started using large rifle magnum primers in my rifles. The adapters, and breech plug were purchased from Precision Rifle. In the time since the purchase i have shot near 600 rifle primers. A little experimenting was done, and i ended up modifying a TC Omega breech plug so it could utilize the PR adapters. The flash hole was enlarged to 0.032", and the primer socket was made deeper so an o-ring could be utilized. The flame channel was left at 1/8" diameter. About 400 shots were taken through that breech plug.

It surprises me that the flash hole never eroded. Actually the flash hole would only accept a 0.031" gage after about 200 shots. Well..since the flash hole didn't grow, i decided to drill it a bit larger in preparation for the upcoming winter. Today the modified breech plug has about 490 shots through, but the flash hole is now 0.034". The magnum rifle primers don't erode flash holes. It kinda seems the 0.034" flash hole has my rifles shooting a bit more accurate than the 0.031" flash hole.

Three different brand magnum rifle primers were tried. The Federal 215 primer is the one i kinda settled on. It always ignites, and the soot it makes is soft. The flame channel can be cleaned by using a 1/8" drill twisted using just finger tips.

This morning i took my hunting rifle up shooting. The rifle is an Omega X7, and it has a 1X Nikon scope mounted so for to satisfy our muzzle loader regulations. Before the rifle was loaded, the barrel was fouled by firing 5 shotgun primers through a breech plug without a flash hole, into a wad of rags. The shotgun primer plug was replaced with the rifle primer plug, and the rifle loaded with 110g Blackhorn, 300g Deep Curl, crush rib sabot, and Federal 215 primer. The first four shots were taken at 93 yard, and they all hit in the red.










Then a move was made out to 202 yard, the elevation dial turned up 6 moa, and three shots taken in a breeze blowing from right to left.

Hey Ron, Good shooting. Do you really think you need the larger .034 flash hole for the cold weather?

I have one plug in my MK-95 50 cal that is about 16 years old and has pretty much been fed a diet of CCI 250 LRMP, I have absolutely no idea how many primers that have went through it, but last check it was still .032 as I recall. I don't know if I had shot mine in temps you might see though, I think the lowest I have shot in was about 18 to 20* I had an accuracy issue one season several years ago and thought it had finally wore out. I swapped it out and still had a problem. Turned out to be a Nikon Monarch that gave up after something like 10 years. I swapped the original plug back in and still works great.

I have been very interested in what you have been doing with the adapters and LRMP in the normally 209 rifles. I have been thinking about getting some of those adapters to try in my KRB7.

Well, i don't really know if the 0.034" flash hole is necessary, but i have been thinking about for a few months now. Right or wrong it has occurred to me that a flash hole can't really be too big, until it starts to allow powder through, or if/when it allows too much pressure on the primers. The shotgun primers start to leak when the pressure gets to be too much, but these rifle primers are made for much higher pressure, and so far i have seen no soot between the primer, and the adapter. Another place where the pressure from a too large flash hole may cause a problem, is blow by around the nose of the primer/adapter. This is not a concern in my rifle, because there is an o-ring in the primer seat, which provides a perfect seal. Since there is zero worry the flash hole will erode larger, i just had to go ahead and give it a try. If i ever experience a hang fire or misfire this winter, i guess the flash hole will be enlarged to 0.040", but my feeling is that won't be necessary. Blackhorn powder granules seem to be about 0.045" diameter.

The adapters are very well made, and it seems they will last many many many shots.

I was curious if you though it really needed it or if it was just "insurance". I have only been shooting BH in this rifle for a couple years. Before that it was always Pyrodex which is easier to ignite. When BH came out I did not think I could shoot it in this rifle but had to try one day and found I had no mis-fires or FTF. I have wondered a time or two how it would be in real cold temps from this rifle but don't recall it go below about 25* where I hunt since shooting BH. I know it has been fine in lower temps with Pyro. I would think that anywhere from the .032 to your .034 it should be ok. What Temps do you get down too where you hunt, I sort of forgot but seem to remember it was at least single digits? I will be real curious to see what you find this season.

I had modified the 209 plug in the KRB7 to use an o-ring too so I would like to get some of those adapters to try. I seem to recall it still has a factory flashhole of .029 and works good with 209's and Bh. I should get back to that rifle but sort of side tracked myself with the .54 and my new lead bullets though.

Yes a 0.029" flash hole works good for me too when using 209 primers. No problems igniting Blackhorn down to -15. However, the rifle primers don't spew all the stuff into the powder that erodes flash holes; it seems to me a larger flash hole would be better when using rifle primers. When i make flash holes for use with 209 primers i use a 0.028" drill. Reason being the smaller flash hole is reliable igniting Blackhorn, and we all know, it won't be 0.028" for long; by the time one shoots 150 shots, the flash hole in my breech plugs is large enough to allow too much pressure on the 209 primers, and needs to be fixed.

It is my opinion the optimal flash hole size for 209 primers is 0.028"; just because it allows more shots than starting with a larger flash hole. Actually, i have no idea what the optimal flash hole size for rifle primers is. My hunch is the rifle primer can benefit from a larger flash hole, because it doesn't spew as much 'stuff' to the powder. So..i made the flash hole 0.034", after shooting a little over 400 shots through the 0.031" flash hole. Now that i have shot the rifle using the larger flash hole, i think it is more accurate. It very well may be, this is just wishful thinking.

Last February, when i first began shooting the rifle primers it was quite cold on some days. At that time, it seemed to me the targets i shot using shotgun primers showed better accuracy, and i had doubts about using rifle primers. At that time i was wanting to shoot 140g of powder, and because this is a bit much for shotgun primers, i wondered if the rifle primers would be the answer. Target after target was better when using the shotgun primers, even though they leaked through the cup. Sometimes i wonder if i would have seen better accuracy with the rifle primers if the flash hole would have been larger. One day i decided i had no good reason to shoot 140g loads, because i am limited by a 1X scope. Next day i noticed how fast 140g charges can drain a bottle of powder..

Thanks Ron. I now recall some of the posts you made on the comparisons you made then and also wondered why the difference. I think I see where your thinking is headed and you might be onto something by getting a bit more flame to the powder and getting better ignition. I sort of keep forgetting how different the 209 plug is when compared to mine. In mine it has a Huge "Flame Channel" compared to the one in the 209 plug, yet the depth of the Flashhole itself is extremely shallow compared to the 209s. I am not sure what it is, might have to figure out a way to measure it. I don't currently use a plug with a Vent liner yet. Any idea how deep/long the flash channel is in a vent liner? I've only seen pictures of the vent liners so far, and don't recall anyone stating how long it was.

Now that I cannot buy a plug for these MK-95 rifles, though I do have a couple squirreled away and they seem to last a long time, I have been pondering a way to make a new plug that is quite different, so I do pay attention to the experimenting you are doing with LRMP. You sure have a way of getting me thinking. :yeah:

The flash hole in a vent liner is about 1/8" long. Most vent liners available for purchase have a flash hole about 0.031" to 0.033" diameter. My home made vent liners have a 0.028" flash hole diameter. Reason for mine being 0.028" is simply because the factory Omega breech plugs come with a 0.028" to 0.029" flash hole, and they work. The 0.028" flash hole work when it is -15, and when the hole starts smaller the vent liner lasts longer. My guess is the commercial vent liners have a large flash hole because they are intended for use with smokeless powder. Just so you know, i have never used a vent liner in a plug that uses rifle primers..there is no need, because the flash hole never grows.

You mentioned flame channel size. The flame channel in the breech plug using rifle primers was intentionally left at 1/8". Last hunting season i broke out a brand new breech plug for the hunt. This was before i tried rifle primers. Before i took the brand new plug hunting, i enlarged the flame channel with a 5/32" drill. This i did because it is my opinion a 5/32" flame channel is better for shotgun primers, because it reduces the pressure on the primer, compared to a 1/8" flame channel. This 'new' plug only has had a few shots fired through it, and if i end up with problems in the middle of hunting, in cold weather, using the rifle primers, i may switch to this plug, and shotgun primers. Shotgun primers seem to have two issues; they spew all kind of stuff, and they are not designed to withstand much pressure. Other than the enlarged flame channel, this 'new' Omega plug is factory stock, and i believe it is optimum for shotgun primers.

But...But.. I have like 10k W209.... and they get used more for muzzy than shotgun reloading these last few years...Damnit, I'm sticking with them

Sorry, I just assumed you were using one of your plugs with a vent liner in it. I know my flashhole is shorter than 1/8" but will have to try to measure it. The Flash channel in my plug is approximately .376 since the plug accepts a shortened 38spl case. I have been thinking of having a plug made that would eliminate the shortened 38spl case and use just an adapter similar to what you are using. So the sizes of the flash hole and the flash channel that you are working with was something I was interested in. Thanks.

Squeeze my problem is the opposite! I only use 209s for one rifle. So it would be great to have all the same. :wink:

Ron,

Any reason those LRP Adaptors could not be dropped into a Knight NPBP? In your opinion, would there be any advantage over standard 209s?

You would need to keep track of those little fellas.

Thanks

LarryBud said:

Ron,

Any reason those LRP Adaptors could not be dropped into a Knight NPBP? In your opinion, would there be any advantage over standard 209s?

You would need to keep track of those little fellas.

Thanks

Click to expand...

They will not work in a Knight or any other production breech plug - they are to large in diameter. You could/will need to modify the breech plug, drilling out a larger primer pocket (diameter) but they still would not fit in the space allowed in the bolt for a Mountaineer or the primer adapter used in the older DISC series.

The PR primer adapters are significantly larger than a 209 primer.

sabotloader

Well.. that is too bad. If one could use the large rifle primers in a Knight, one wouldn't need to worry about the erosion of the flash hole in the brazed vent liner. The breech plug has about 0.047" of steel around the shotgun primer. It would have about 0.028" of steel around the large rifle primer adapter, which does seem scant.

By the way, regarding the issue the fella was having with his ultra-light, the breech plug with the brazed vent liner arrived here, and it was removed, and replaced. You may find it interesting that the flame channel was nearly completely clogged with carbon, and that is what caused the sticky primers, blow back, and inaccuracy in the fella' rifle. The flash hole was only 0.035", and i am sure if there had been a 5/32" drill run into the flame channel, the plug would have been good for another 100 or so shots. At any rate, right or wrong, it seems to me the plugs with the brazed vent liners are good for about 200 shots or so.

LarryBud said:

Ron,

Any reason those LRP Adaptors could not be dropped into a Knight NPBP? In your opinion, would there be any advantage over standard 209s?

You would need to keep track of those little fellas.

Thanks

Click to expand...

sabotloader nicely answered your question about whether they would fit.

In my opinion there would be an advantage to using rifle primers in the Knight, and that would be the breech plugs with the brazed vent liners, may never wear out.

Yes one does need to keep track of them little fellas; they cost about $1 each. After 6 month of using them, i think i have lost two of them, but have grown accustomed to handling them. They are very sturdy, and should last many many many shots.

ronlaughlin said:

sabotloader

Well.. that is too bad. If one could use the large rifle primers in a Knight, one wouldn't need to worry about the erosion of the flash hole in the brazed vent liner. The breech plug has about 0.047" of steel around the shotgun primer. It would have about 0.028" of steel around the large rifle primer adapter, which, does seem scant.

By the way, regarding the issue the fella was having with his ultra-light, the breech plug with the brazed vent liner arrived here, and it was removed, and replaced. You may find it interesting that the flame channel was nearly completely clogged with carbon, and that is what caused the sticky primers, blow back, and inaccuracy in the fella' rifle. The flash hole was only 0.035", and i am sure if there had been a 5/32" drill run into the flame channel, the plug would have been good for another 100 or so shots. At any rate, right or wrong, it seems to me the plugs with the brazed vent liners are good for about 200 shots or so.

Click to expand...

Ron, I believe you are correct on the 200 shot estimate, depending on which 209 primer you use. The hotter the primer the quicker the erosion.

I have several plugs that I have more than 200 shots through but I have only shot, W209's, or the even cooler Winchester T7 primers and the coolest 209 primer I have a Remington 209-4, which are really my favorite.

I talked to Cecil about the larger size of the 209 adapters, he tried to keep the original size of the adapters but because of the diameter of the LRP (larger than the primer in a 209) they (his current adapters) would not stand up to the pressures so he changed to stainless and increased the physical size until it would maintain integrity.



When I had a set I failed to measure them so I do not know what the increase in size other than they will not even come close to going in the bolt nose. Plus Cecil chided me a little bit that I did not read the directions on the web site that they were much larger than the normal 209 battery cup.

If You make the FPJ out of SS or brass and it will fit a FPJ bolt. The tricky part is making it seal to a plug. Using a NFPJ plug and the correct size 209 "nose" on the SS or brass yFPJ, it would be possible. Bestill made one for his custom Knights.

IIRC the PR SS primer carrier is loosely based on a 22 Hornet case.

BTW some of the custom LRMP plugs ive seen are using a tungsten bushing with a .040 flash hole in the bushing and a narrow/short flash channel. This design has been working very well with loads making far more PSI than BH209. They are know to last over 400 shots in a SML. Luke at ArrowHead sells these bushings in .031 and .040 for around $50 IIRC.

I was just looking at the PR site today for the Adapters. At the Least the rim diameter must be close to the 22 hornet because he states to use a 22 Hornet shell holder in your priming tool or Press to prime them. I was a little shocked that the shipping started at $13 for 10 adapters, but then I realized he is in Canada.

GM.. do you know what the Od of tungsten Bushing is? I am guessing it is the same as a Vent liner around a #10 or so?

No, i dont know the OD of the bushing. All i know is they require modification to the Savage breach plug. Its not a drop in replacement. Hankins Rifles also sells a complete tungsten bushing breach plug. Its a complete custom plug but he does make one for Encore MLs too.

Found it
.375" long, .250" diameter. Both .040 and .030 are currently available from Luke. He also sells the locking collar for the bushing for about $1.

When using the .040, its recommended to only use LRMPs systems. The larger flash hole may put too much pressure on a 209 primer. Some people have enlarged the flash channel to 7/32 with good results.

Thanks GM!