Blackhorn breech plugs.

Ok Shawn T, there are some good pictures of the action if you "GOOGLE" Knight Revolution loading and look at "Images of Knight Revolution loading", also look at "Introduction 2, Steve's page" at the bare primer conversion in the instruction manual for real good pictures. Hope this helps .

Well Dud, Forgot I actually have that manual since the KRB is in it. :d'oh!:

I also learned something too. I did not know they made a Bare Primer conversion for the Revolution.

What 209 primer are you currently using?

If the patch was not burned with a fairly good hole in it (Don't have to be the size of the jag face) then you still may not have enough flame/pressure getting to the powder. BH 209 is a lot harder to ignite than other subs.

If that Firing pin bushing/plunger has a spring to press on the FPJ, then a stiffer one might help. I wonder if the Bare primer conversion would be any cleaner. Might be one that is hard to get now though.

Once I started on the KRB, I spent a few weeks (Evenings) and weekends on it. :wink: Was actually a fun project.

I was using the weaker Winchester 777 primers. I wonder if the bare primer conversion holds the primer stationary.

777 Primers are the weakest Primers, they are to help with the crud ring build up from Sub powders. For BlackHorn209 you would definitely need a hotter primer. Some of the rifles can use a standard shotgun primer like the Win 209 or the Rem STS, but others need the Magnum primers like the CCI 209M or Fed209A, to get good ignition with BH209. The main difference is in the Breech plug design. If you have a good local gun shop that carries powders for reloaders, they usually will sell the primers by the individual 100 pack instead of a brick of 1000. You might try looking for the Fed209A or CCI209M. There is a Standard CCI209 too but look for the Mag. Primer length can be a factor sometimes too in sealing up a Breech plug. There is a chart of primer lengths in the sticky at the very top of this forum.

Not sure about the conversion but the adapter should hang onto the primer since it pulls the spent primer back out of the plug. It will not hold it firm as it needs some movement to center up in the plug when the action closes, but the primer should push back against the face of the block when it goes into the primer pocket of the plug. The trick then is to get it to seal up in the bottom of the pocket. With some of the breech plugs we use either Shims or O-rings in the bottom of the pocket for the primer to seat on sealing up the plug. It may be possible to use one of those with a conversion kit if you could find one, that might be the hardest part. There are some guys that are shooting the Red FPJ with Mag primers ok. I tried them once in a Disc Elite and it did not work so well for me, but then again I have not fired a Revolution so all of this is best guess.

We could probably make a bare primer breech plug. Me, if i had some dimensions; you, if you get one of them hobby lathe. Back when i owned a Mountaineer, i made a start toward making a bare primer breech plug for it. What i did was install a grade 8 bolt into a 900024 plug where the nipple was, then went no further, because i sold the rifle. Not knowing much about it, i am not sure this plug could be made into a working plug for the Revolution, but it seems it could.

stude283 mentioned tightening things by using an o-ring. Seems like one could also tighten the existing spring, by making a breech plug with less head space.

Ron, I'm going to try the bronze thrust washer in front of plug. That would tighten my head space and force the spring to compress 1/16" more at the other end. That "should" give me more spring pressure. Also the washer seals the breech from "any" thread fowling, at least it did for my MK-85 and D.I.S.C. Elite. I just have to lathe off 1/16" from the front of the hex on the plug as it hits the trigger group with the washer in place. If all works right I will either order the 900024 plug or send you mine for the liner. I think the liner is probably the best way to go.

On all of the guns I have converted an oring and cci 209 magnum primers were the only way I got ignition with enough confidence to hunt with. The orongs are cheap by the 100 pack and i replace after a shooting session or a few shots. Each different sized bag is marked for the guns that use that size. McMaster-Carr has them all some fractional and some metric.

Well that didn't work. The 1/16" washer made the spring bottom out and I couldn't close the action with a primer in the gun. Back to square one.

Ok, update. The bronze thrust washer works great at sealing the threads, "zero" fowling, just like all the other guns I did this mod to. The washer was 65 thousands thick which made the plug to long to close the action, so I took 50 thousands off the nipple length giving me 15 thousands extra squeeze on the primer. It works now, but still spews primer residue all over, that is still an issue, but the plug thread issue is solved, making progress. :yeah:

Ron, The lathe is sort of on hold till after he first of the year, Maybe then.

Stude283, He still is using the red fpj so no where to really put the O-ring, like we did in the KRB7. Possibly the only 2 places to put it would be one over the nipple end of the plug so that the FPJ would press on it, or behind this plunger with the firing pin. I'm not sure one behind the plunger/bushing would help. In looking at the pictures of the trigger group I'm wondering how much movement that plunger really has since it is retained by pins. Those pins would limit the amount it would move forward, but the O-Ring or a stiffer spring would increase the forward pressure as long as when it closes up the FPJ is seated against it. I am also thinking that some of the blow back is coming from the FPJ itself.

Casper, How much travel does that plunger have if you press on it? Is one of the pins at the top what hold that plunger in place? From the picture in the manual we talked about, it looked like the plunger has a groove cut into it for the pin.

If you take one of the fired primers out of the FPJ is the sides of the primer black indicating that some of the blowback came from in the middle of the FPJ, instead of around it?

It may be that you would need the bare primer kit, but I have a feeling it might be hard to find. At least with it you could put an O-ring in there that would be thick enough to allow the primer to compress it when the action was closed. The compression of the o-ring allows for some leeway in tolerances and will flex under fire to maintain the seal. Like Stude283 said they are cheap at McMaster

The only other idea I see is the one Ron mentioned about making a plug with a longer nipple (Neck) for a bar primer. You could make it so that it will be far enough back to force the bare primer to seat in the pocket by the force of the block or plunger when you closed the action. The only down side I see to that is that there would be nothing to extract the primer and you would need to pick it out manually.

There is a roll pin on the top and bottom of the plunger. When the action is closed there is no gap as the primed FPJ is pressed up against the plunger and the other end of the primer is tight against the nipple. The leak happens when I fire the primer, the pressure compresses the plunger spring like a shock absorber. I 'm looking for a stronger spring as the chances of me putting the exact fitting spacer (in place of the spring) to head space it would be almost impossible. It is in effect head spaced under spring tension if you will.

First of all, i know nothing about this rifle, and shouldn't have an opinion. However, it seems to me it is possible that an o-ring under the primer might be able to compensate for the inexact head space issue. My thought, probably wrong, is a bare primer breech plug, along with an o-ring, along with a tightly compressed spring, might just possibly make a seal against blow back. From what i have read on these forum, there will always be blow back when using the plastic jackets, no matter what the rifle.

By using a breech plug that utilizes bare primers, and allows the use of an o-ring, it may be possible to get the correct spring compression, to reduce blow back, and reliably ignite Blackhorn. Isn't that what stude283 is saying?

stude283, We may be able to make a bare primer breech plug, if you can show us a picture of yours. Perhaps not..

I have often wondered if a KRB plug would work in the Revolution. The frames look identical.

Knight part number is a M900047 that is for the conversion it also comes with a rod and possibly a primer extractor? I got this info from Midway how ever it is discontinued. The plug does look similar to my KRB.

Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking here, but I think the problem may be the breech plug design itself. After comparing 900043 the Revolution plug and 900024 the D.I.S.C. Extreme plug, the flame channel is way smaller in the Revolution plug. This may be why I'm getting all the back pressure from the primer as it has to try and pass through such a restricted space ? I'm going to order a 900024 plug and see if that helps, it looks like a much better design, plus, they still make that one. It looks to me as knight was thinking only of blow by from the powder end and by that they made the plug to restricted on the primer end. Just my thinking anyway.

Hornet22savage said:

Knight part number is a M900047 that is for the conversion it also comes with a rod and possibly a primer extractor? I got this info from Midway how ever it is discontinued. The plug does look similar to my KRB.

Click to expand...

If those other two parts are essential for bare primer to work in the Revolution, i cannot make the system to work. Confident i could make the plug itself from a 900024 plug, but that won't be enough.

I just placed my order with Knight for plug 900024. We'll see how that works. :yeah:

ronlaughlin said:

Hornet22savage said:

Knight part number is a M900047 that is for the conversion it also comes with a rod and possibly a primer extractor? I got this info from Midway how ever it is discontinued. The plug does look similar to my KRB.

Click to expand...

If those other two parts are essential for bare primer to work in the Revolution, i cannot make the system to work. Confident i could make the plug itself from a 900024 plug, but that won't be enough.

Click to expand...

In the Revolution conversion kit there is 3 parts (4 if you count a screw). The bare primer adapter is sort of a half circle shape and is screwed into the carrier, the plug itself and the "Rod" is just used as a punch to remove the 2 pins that hold the carrier to the trigger group.

Here is the conversion Hornet22savage spoke of.


This is the trigger group.


Next is the insertion of the adapter.

Hornet22savage said:

I have often wondered if a KRB plug would work in the Revolution. The frames look identical.

Click to expand...

Never thought about if the KRB Plug would work.

The NFPJ conversion won't do anything differently, as far as blow by, as the primer pocket is still spring loaded. I all ready have contact at both end of the primer, I just need to get a stronger spring to overcome the pressure of firing. I think the 900024 plug design will help in that regard as well. I did get my Traditions Thunderbolt modified to shoot BH so that's a plus. (That's a long story). I modified a 8mm hex head cap screw "a lot", for the 209 nipple, and slightly modified the breech plug, Done. :yeah: