45 cal Sabot Question.....

Went out hunting today with my new CVA Optima. Was shooting the 240 gr XTP Mag 45 cal with Harvester crush rib sabots over 90 grs of BH 209 Fed 209A primer.

At the range I got good results shooting a little under an inch at 100 yds. After the hunt ( No luck) I decided to shoot out my ML rather than just pull the load. When I shot I got a poof burp flop...Could hear the sabot/bullet exit the barrel barely and could barley feel recoil so I knew something was wrong...Pulled the breech plug to confirm the round exited the barrel and it did.

I did notice upon loading from a clean barrel that the sabot/bullet combo went down UNUSUALLY easy. So much that it did stick in the back of my mind. When I tested at the range I did not use the above load until after I sighted in at 50 yards. ( I had some 240 shock waves in 45 cal that had the sabots with them, black non crush ribs) So the gun had about 5-10 shot through it before testing.

Could the problem be that the black crush ribs are just too loose as a sabot? Should I order the regular harvester black sabots for a tighter fit because as I read about them them are slightly thicker that the crush ribs?

I also looked at my targets again from that day and I did notice with the above XTP combo that my 1st (2) 3 shot strings were vertically stringing. From my reloading end that is normally a sign of velocity deviations.

I do not know if the TC shock-wave sabots are the harvester regular black ones but did try loading one after I got home and there was sufficient tention when loading. Not alot but enough that I had to use a minor amount of force to seat the bullet sabot combo.

Since your shooting BH209 and the crushed rib loads that easy, I would move to a non crushed type sabot. I somewhere along the line purchased some Nosler MMP-12 sabots. They shoot real good because they load moderately hard in my Optima. Since I too shoot BH209 I want a tight fitting sabot. Maybe it being that loose the sabot was not tight enough to create pressures needed to properly ignite the powder. So yes, I would change to a different sabot.

Yes, and B209 likes a bit of a firm saboted bullet sitting on top of it. If your load was to loose it could of came off the powder charge some too, at least loosened up.

I'd continue the testing to get the right fit.

cayuga said:

Since your shooting BH209 and the crushed rib loads that easy, I would move to a non crushed type sabot. I somewhere along the line purchased some Nosler MMP-12 sabots. They shoot real good because they load moderately hard in my Optima. Since I too shoot BH209 I want a tight fitting sabot. Maybe it being that loose the sabot was not tight enough to create pressures needed to properly ignite the powder. So yes, I would change to a different sabot.

Click to expand...

Were these the ones you were talking about?

http://mmpsabots.com/store/black-sabot/

I have had very good results with Harvester sabots out of my CVA Apex and Accura V2
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/ ... &Itemid=18

BuckDoeHunter said:

I have had very good results with Harvester sabots out of my CVA Apex and Accura V2
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/ ... &Itemid=18

Click to expand...

I ordered some MMP's.... Ill try those next if they dont work...

Thanks


Dave

I am not sure if the ones you posted are the thicker ones... but they should work.

Ive had similiar results with BH209. However it was not a loose fitting bullet/sabot for me. My situation ended up being a dirty flash hole in the breach plug. Frankly I ended up switching back to T7. The thought of tbat happening on a hunt left me cold.

I have never experienced this myself, but I have witnessed this 2-3 times in the past year or so. None of us around the situations can explain how the BH209 loaded rifles (which used a 209 shotgun primer) had enough energy to blow the bullet/sabot/powder out the muzzle - but yet not ignite the powder.
One conclusion was that BH has such similar properties as smokeless - it doesn't ignite due to lack of pressure. Maybe this is true as in a cartridge gun the bullet is groove diameter and isn't able to move forward like a ML.

How is it that numerous people shoot BH209 and easy loading PowerBelts and even ive shot 460gr-488gr easy loading conicals with hardly a hickup? Ive also shot the 300gr PB 45cal without the slightest hint of ignition lag.

IMO a tight fitting projectile is only a small part of the answer and will not always ensure ignition. MY ULA for example loads sabots easy and ignites powders with even higher ignition temps than BH209 with authority.

I believe the solution to the vast majority of BH209 ignition issues lies in the breach plug.

What kind of shotshell primer did you use? I believe Blackhorn recommends Federal magnums. I bought a container of magnum primers and never had a problem. Also, as others pointed out, did you check the flash hole of the breech plug.

I shoot BH out of a TC Contender barrel. The breech plug is over 2 inches long since the barrel has to step down to accommodate the frame of the Contender. I triple check that long flash hole before and after a shooting session as well as when I get ready to hunt.

GM54-120 said:

How is it that numerous people shoot BH209 and easy loading PowerBelts and even ive shot 460gr-488gr easy loading conicals with hardly a hickup? Ive also shot the 300gr PB 45cal without the slightest hint of ignition lag.

IMO a tight fitting projectile is only a small part of the answer and will not always ensure ignition. MY ULA for example loads sabots easy and ignites powders with even higher ignition temps than BH209 with authority.

I believe the solution to the vast majority of BH209 ignition issues lies in the breach plug.

Click to expand...

I have shot powerbelts and to put it in perspective; the loading pressure was even easier than the powerbelts. That what led me to believe it was a loose fitting sabot.

I will address each issue one at a time to rule out each issue.

Thanks for the input

52Bore said:

I have never experienced this myself, but I have witnessed this 2-3 times in the past year or so. None of us around the situations can explain how the BH209 loaded rifles (which used a 209 shotgun primer) had enough energy to blow the bullet/sabot/powder out the muzzle - but yet not ignite the powder.
One conclusion was that BH has such similar properties as smokeless - it doesn't ignite due to lack of pressure. Maybe this is true as in a cartridge gun the bullet is groove diameter and isn't able to move forward like a ML.

Click to expand...

I think it actually ignited the powder but being that there was no pressure caused a limp exit of the bullet sabot... Again only a theory... but im working on it.

bigbore442001 said:

What kind of shotshell primer did you use? I believe Blackhorn recommends Federal magnums. I bought a container of magnum primers and never had a problem. Also, as others pointed out, did you check the flash hole of the breech plug.

I shoot BH out of a TC Contender barrel. The breech plug is over 2 inches long since the barrel has to step down to accommodate the frame of the Contender. I triple check that long flash hole before and after a shooting session as well as when I get ready to hunt.

Click to expand...

I always used fed209a shotgun primers without a problem. I might need the magnums. After I try a different sabot or two that will be my next attempt.


As for the flash hole I gotta admit I didnt check to see if it was clear. I popped 2 primers before loading then just loaded it up.... That could of been an issue too...

GM54-120 said:

How is it that numerous people shoot BH209 and easy loading PowerBelts and even ive shot 460gr-488gr easy loading conicals with hardly a hickup? Ive also shot the 300gr PB 45cal without the slightest hint of ignition lag.

IMO a tight fitting projectile is only a small part of the answer and will not always ensure ignition. MY ULA for example loads sabots easy and ignites powders with even higher ignition temps than BH209 with authority.

I believe the solution to the vast majority of BH209 ignition issues lies in the breach plug.

Click to expand...

I have to agree with that. I shoot BH in that .32 mountaineer and have had no issues with maxi's, custom ballet, PRB. whatever I can find to shove down the barrel, never a hitch with ignition

Harvester SMOOTH Black sabots (for under 300gr) are what i use even with a 300gr bullet. The MMP HPH-24 will substitute very well also. Its nearly the same loaded OD but longer. MMP HPH-12 is a bit tighter.

I firmly believe a well designed plug is the key. In a exceptional design even the mildest of primers is very reliable. I use mostly regular CCIs in my ULA and Win209s in my Knights. I use a mix of Win209s and Fed209As in my Savage plugs. Those are the ones that fit the best and come out the cleanest after firing.

Its my opinion the Western BH209 plug is ok but may still need a mag primer AND the firing pin bushing shim kit. Its also my opinion that Ron's modification to the OEM CVA plug is probably better still.

I also believe the cleaner your fired primers appear, the more energy is reaching the powder. Where else can it go? You can achieve this with the firing pin bushing shim kit or an o-ring in the primer pocket.

These beliefs are based on the assumption there were no oils or other contaminants in the bore or flash channel. They are also based on my first hand experience with a variety of plugs and primers.

GM54-120 said:

Harvester SMOOTH Black sabots (for under 300gr) are what i use even with a 300gr bullet. The MMP HPH-24 will substitute very well also. Its nearly the same loaded OD but longer. MMP HPH-12 is a bit tighter.

I firmly believe a well designed plug is the key. In a exceptional design even the mildest of primers is very reliable. I use mostly regular CCIs in my ULA and Win209s in my Knights. I use a mix of Win209s and Fed209As in my Savage plugs. Those are the ones that fit the best and come out the cleanest after firing.

Its my opinion the Western BH209 plug is ok but may still need a mag primer AND the firing pin bushing shim kit. Its also my opinion that Ron's modification to the OEM CVA plug is probably better still.

I also believe the cleaner your fired primers appear, the more energy is reaching the powder. Where else can it go? You can achieve this with the firing pin bushing shim kit or an o-ring in the primer pocket.

These beliefs are based on the assumption there were no oils or other contaminants in the bore or flash channel. They are also based on my first hand experience with a variety of plugs and primers.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply...

I am going to start breaking down each issue then eliminate it as I go. I am going to try and find some magnum primers also after I try the sabot change.


Ill post updates as I go....

Thanks to all who responded, you guys are a great bunch of ppl.


Dave

The Fed209A and the CCI209M at about the hottest 209s you can get, I think the CCI209M is a tad hotter. Doubt it was the primer. If you have any blowback around the primers (Black soot on the sides of the primer) then you should acquire the shim kit. Like GM54-120 said, if that primer gets seated so that it is sealed in the primer pocket then all the flame and pressure has to go through the plug. If you have much leakage around the primer then you are loosing some of the flame and pressure and that can lead to ignition problems.

GM54-120 said:

How is it that numerous people shoot BH209 and easy loading PowerBelts and even ive shot 460gr-488gr easy loading conicals with hardly a hickup? Ive also shot the 300gr PB 45cal without the slightest hint of ignition lag.

IMO a tight fitting projectile is only a small part of the answer and will not always ensure ignition. MY ULA for example loads sabots easy and ignites powders with even higher ignition temps than BH209 with authority.

I believe the solution to the vast majority of BH209 ignition issues lies in the breach plug.

Click to expand...

Did I read this correctly or my eyes playing tricks on me. :d'oh!: oke:

I would try the aluminum foil trick. I saw it in a video. If your sabots are too loose, you take a wrap of foil around the bullet then place inside the sabot. You can keep adding layers until you notice groups tighten. This would only work if your bullet sabot combo was a little too loose. This effectively increases the diameter making a tighter seal in the bore. Also, this won't help if you have some other problem. Assuming everything else is okay, I would try this :wink:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9nIF82SlYpc