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sg.ellis2 said:
Reference your post that the rifle couldn't hit a 4 foot x 4 foot piece of cardboard at 37 yards. Could you clarify? Are you saying the groups were off the mark greater than 2 feet when aiming at the center of the 4 foot by 4 foot board?? Or are you saying the groups were so much larger than 4 foot by 4 foot in diameter that they left a donut sized hole in the middle bigger than the board???

I'm pretty good at math, and just crunching the numbers reference a scope being mounted off, for the bore axis and the scope tube center to be askew greater than two feet at only 37 yards, with the receiver forward and rear base holes being 5.11 inches apart, the front and rear mounts would be markedly off a good 0.090". If you include maxing out the scope adjustment range, it would be even more askew. Be it the short action receiver was machined that far off, or the scope being mounted that far off, how was this not noticed when mounting the scope? Alarm bells should be going off when aligning the rings, if two piece, and if one piece, the collimator would indicate a big problem, long before bullets are sent down range on paper. If not talking scope, but talking the factory fixed sights, the front and rear sights would be so far askew that it would be noticeable to the naked eye, being they would be mounted off greater than half an inch.

The statement "couldn't hit a 4 foot x 4 foot piece of cardboard at 37 yards" sounds very dramatic. But in reality, who mounted the scope? What pieces and parts did they use, and how was such a large error missed during the mounting process??

Thanks :)

Concerning all the answers to your questions concerning that specific rifle, go to the linked web page and please call Matt Watts. I'm sure he'll be able to answer further questions, as he sold the rifle, returned the rifle to Remington and had the NEW replacement rifle sent back to him without explanation. I like you, have no clue who did what, only what I was told to me by Matt, who also gave me permission to use his name, web page link and the information he provided. He can better answer your questions with facts.
 
fivebull said:
It is hard for me to believe that Remington would put a half assed rifle out on the Market. Supposedly you have new people on this sight that do not have a clue about Inlines or Muzzle Loaders period. From what I read, it seems some people just don't like the Remington. Tool marks in a barrel , unless lapped will have tool marks unless it has been gouged . If I were a new person to this sight I would be so confused, I believe I would just by a sling shot. I haven't seen much on any rifle on here that isn't compared to smokeless ML. I agree with fellow above, if I get a chance I'll get a Remington.

Please review page one (1) at the beginning of the post. There are two very good photos of before (new from the box) and after cleaning. Remington has ALL the information and wants the rifle returned. Remington agrees, there's a barrel problem. It happens. Its just like a new model auto hitting the market, some will need changes of things that either don't work as intended or require replacement.
 
ENCORE50A said:
fivebull said:
It is hard for me to believe that Remington would put a half assed rifle out on the Market. Supposedly you have new people on this sight that do not have a clue about Inlines or Muzzle Loaders period. From what I read, it seems some people just don't like the Remington. Tool marks in a barrel , unless lapped will have tool marks unless it has been gouged . If I were a new person to this sight I would be so confused, I believe I would just by a sling shot. I haven't seen much on any rifle on here that isn't compared to smokeless ML. I agree with fellow above, if I get a chance I'll get a Remington.

Please review page one (1) at the beginning of the post. There are two very good photos of before (new from the box) and after cleaning. Remington has ALL the information and wants the rifle returned. Remington agrees, there's a barrel problem. It happens. Its just like a new model auto hitting the market, some will need changes of things that either don't work as intended or require replacement.

yes encore you are right
as for other people thinking we just don't like Remington is ridiculous. if anyone was to look at the marlin fourms or youtube on the issues with barrels with tool marks there is plenty a very well know issue as far back a Remington taking over marlin. in all that I have seen they most likely did not use enough lube when button rifling the barrels or the tooling are wearing out/
 
It was my understanding that Remington custom shop rifles are button rifled, but the production 700 barrels have the rifling hammer forged on a mandrel. It is not uncommon to see tool marks on production barrels from the reaming and hammer forging process, this does not prevent most from shooting well. I'd not expect to find a custom hand lapped bench or match grade barrel on a production rifle.

You will have not a clue how well the production barrel will shoot, if it is never shot. But, you can expect to round the edge off rifling and the crown with an excessive amount of aggressive mechanical cleaning, which you can further expect will degrade whatever potential the given barrel may have had. Use solvents that attack the unwanted substance you wish to remove from the barrel id. If you need to attack copper, use something appropriate for copper. If you need to attack a varnish like plastic resin, then use something appropriate for plastic, resins, and varnish, to reduce the need for an excessive amount of aggressive mechanical action. Once that initial varnish is removed, use the appropriate solvent and cleaning techniques for whatever stuff you are shooting.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
- Albert Einstein
 
In my opinion if Remington wants to put that much protective coating, or what ever you want to call it in a barrel,
they should give cleaning instructions how to remove it. Not knowing what is in the barrel make it hard for most
gun owners to know what will remove it.
 
I dunno. guess a lemon gets out every so often in anything. BUT I AM seeing more and more GOOD reviews. And the gun is starting to grow on me more and more. It may just be next years acquisition. Even worst case scenario, Its still a good gun, and a rebarrel with a new breech can easily turn it into any number of great guns. My normal hunting at home is short range (almost bow range half the time) I only get to shoot 2-300 at the range, But I still do a great deal of that, and WAY more shooting there than while hunting. Im kind of surprized you dont see many factory production guns in .45, and even .410 (again showing how far ahead ole Doc White was) If I can find a white in .410 or a tominator, im jumping on it
 
sg.ellis2 said:
It was my understanding that Remington custom shop rifles are button rifled, but the production 700 barrels have the rifling hammer forged on a mandrel. It is not uncommon to see tool marks on production barrels from the reaming and hammer forging process, this does not prevent most from shooting well. I'd not expect to find a custom hand lapped bench or match grade barrel on a production rifle.

You will have not a clue how well the production barrel will shoot, if it is never shot. But, you can expect to round the edge off rifling and the crown with an excessive amount of aggressive mechanical cleaning, which you can further expect will degrade whatever potential the given barrel may have had. Use solvents that attack the unwanted substance you wish to remove from the barrel id. If you need to attack copper, use something appropriate for copper. If you need to attack a varnish like plastic resin, then use something appropriate for plastic, resins, and varnish, to reduce the need for an excessive amount of aggressive mechanical action. Once that initial varnish is removed, use the appropriate solvent and cleaning techniques for whatever stuff you are shooting.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
- Albert Einstein

We appear to have completely different opinions over a rifle barrel and the cleaning of that barrel, that you've never seen. Now rather you use a muzzle/crown protector or not when cleaning, you should know that I do. EVERY cleaning rod I own/use, has a muzzle/crown protector. My cleaning processes over the years has NEVER degraded the accuracy of any of my rifles. Of course I've never had such garbage to clean from any other rifle either. A T/C Pro Hunter that I just sold, had over 8,000 rounds down it with my cleaning methods and the new owner shot a 3/4" group with it before buying it. I shot the last 3 rounds and made a 3/8" group CtC. Seems after 8,000 rounds and my cleaning methods doesn't do much damage....

I also can't explain it any more plainer...... Remington says the barrel is, "bad and not right, it should NOT be in that condition." Remington instructed, "DO NOT SHOOT THE RIFLE." The Remington representative stated, "THE BARREL IS BAD AND MUST BE RETURNED".

Its quite evident you disagree with me and/or any cleaning methods I may or may not have used. That's ok, I don't mind. However, its also evident that you're disagreeing with Remington too. That to me is questionable......

Many other and very competent professional rifle builders and shooters, have also seen these photos and read my explanations. Many who have shot the Friendship shoot for years. To date, you appear to be the only responder to who may want to debate the condition of the rifle barrel and/or methods of trying to clean it. The debate will most likely continue over brass and breech plug cutting, where Jeff Hankins reported that it would be possible that even a single gas leaking case, could micro cut and cause further gas cutting of the breech plug, even though it is made from 416 stainless steel. Then after Jeff's post, you immediately became interested in his breech plugs and ignition system?

That said, it appears there's more of a disagreement between us. I'm ok with that and hold no hard feelings. However I would ask that you take into consideration Remington's response, along with the other professional builders and shooters. We all would be much better off taking their word/recommendations/suggestons, than to bicker back and forth.
 
The way I see it, If wiping the barrel with cotton wears that metal in any way. I sure dont want to be near it full of powder. I dont see how excessive wiping does any catastrophic damage. My real black shooters get wiped a ton, for many years now.
 
Squeeze said:
The way I see it, If wiping the barrel with cotton wears that metal in any way. I sure dont want to be near it full of powder. I dont see how excessive wiping does any catastrophic damage. My real black shooters get wiped a ton, for many years now.

I'm assuming that he was alluding to my using a bore brush ruining the rifling and crown. I used all the "normal" rifle barrel cleaners, which wouldn't touch the substance in the barrel. I did not however, use anything that required a HAZMAT suit, to try and remove it. Instead I called Remington. Remington answered all the questions.
 
An update:

Remington received the rifle back. In turn Remington, as they first indicated, told the owner that the barrel was bad (defective) and it would require a replacement. Then they told the owner, they were in an inventory process and didn't know when parts would be available and/or when they could return his rifle. The owner was upset and asked Remington for his money back. The rifle had never been fired. Remington told the owner they'd look into it....

Now, being that it appears another member seems to think I don't have a clue about anything with the RU and, that I'm alleging stories about bad barrels. That member has been given the name of a firearms dealer to verify the one rifle not being able to hit a 4 foot by 4 foot piece of cardboard at 37yds. It has been suggested that all I want to do is bash or talk bad in some way about Remington or the RU rifle. Not so. I'm excited about a new model rifle hitting the market and hope it sells well. Sharing bad experiences, isn't bashing the entire product.

For any other members who may be interested in discussing this RU issue with the firearms dealer, he's more than willing to answer any questions. However when the dealer asked Remington what the exact reason of its problems, they would only reply it was defective.

Matt Watts....... http://www.wattsammunition.com/

Matt has provided this information for me to share, concerning the rifle that couldn't hit a 4'x4' piece of cardboard at 37yds.

 
Received a phone call Sunday from the RU owner, who told me Remington refunded his entire purchase price and included a letter of apology.

Remington stated that the barrel was a manufacturing process error and apologized.

In this case, Remington did the right thing by the owner and should be commended.

He has already purchased another rifle and is quite happy.
 
fishhawk2700 said:
Another Remington, or from another mfg?

Yup and old post ........ a new update.

fishhawk2700, his new rifle is an Ultimate BP Xpress. He picked it up when I posted last.

Fast forward to today....... The owner called this afternoon and told me he had finally found the time today to shoot his Ultimate. He said he placed a piece of cardboard with a 1" black dot on it at 200 yards. He said that he had bough a new sled to shoot from and dialed his scope to 200yds and fired 5 rounds. He said all 5 rounds went into a 1" group touching the dot. Needless to say, you'd have thought he won the lottery he was so happy! He told me that he's convinced himself after shooting today, that he's giving up whitetail hunting with a CF. He said that when work gives him some time, he plans on shooting it to 300.
 
ENCORE50A said:
fishhawk2700 said:
Another Remington, or from another mfg?

Yup and old post ........ a new update.

fishhawk2700, his new rifle is an Ultimate BP Xpress. He picked it up when I posted last.

Fast forward to today....... The owner called this afternoon and told me he had finally found the time today to shoot his Ultimate. He said he placed a piece of cardboard with a 1" black dot on it at 200 yards. He said that he had bough a new sled to shoot from and dialed his scope to 200yds and fired 5 rounds. He said all 5 rounds went into a 1" group touching the dot. Needless to say, you'd have thought he won the lottery he was so happy! He told me that he's convinced himself after shooting today, that he's giving up whitetail hunting with a CF. He said that when work gives him some time, he plans on shooting it to 300.

So it sounds like he did basically no prep work, and the gun is shooting 1" groups at 200yds? :shock:

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but assuming it did... what is it that makes that gun so accurate - and apparently, pretty much right out of the box? I'm just curious, that's impressive accuracy with any rifle.
 
WV Hunter said:
ENCORE50A said:
fishhawk2700 said:
Another Remington, or from another mfg?

Yup and old post ........ a new update.

fishhawk2700, his new rifle is an Ultimate BP Xpress. He picked it up when I posted last.

Fast forward to today....... The owner called this afternoon and told me he had finally found the time today to shoot his Ultimate. He said he placed a piece of cardboard with a 1" black dot on it at 200 yards. He said that he had bough a new sled to shoot from and dialed his scope to 200yds and fired 5 rounds. He said all 5 rounds went into a 1" group touching the dot. Needless to say, you'd have thought he won the lottery he was so happy! He told me that he's convinced himself after shooting today, that he's giving up whitetail hunting with a CF. He said that when work gives him some time, he plans on shooting it to 300.

So it sounds like he did basically no prep work, and the gun is shooting 1" groups at 200yds? :shock:

I'm not saying it didn't happen, but assuming it did... what is it that makes that gun so accurate - and apparently, pretty much right out of the box? I'm just curious, that's impressive accuracy with any rifle.

Its all the research, time, money and exact tolerances in the barrel by the manufacturer IMO. The owner is no slouch when it comes to shooting either, owning different custom built CF rifles.

I picked up my own BP Xpress before it had been shot. I was making the 250 mile trip for a family issue and just stopped and picked up the rifle, with no time to shoot it. The scope had been bore sighted and that was it, had never been fired. After I returned home and found the time, I shot my BP Xpress. Brand new, never been fired, it shot better than I could shoot it. There's no load development, its all been done for you. Just follow the manufacturer's directions, load it up and shoot.
Because he's not a member and he doesn't post much in any forum, certainly not with targets, I'll give you an idea from my own experience......

First time ever fired, setting the scope zero:


Nice 100yd group, same load as above and recommended, nothing changed:


Testing a different bullet and sabot at 300 yards, then shooting 4 shots of the recommended bullets:


Same load as day one. No change, following directions:
 
Wow - that's some great shooting! I'm in envy.

I was sent a Model 700UML for review last August and had a couple of problems right out of the box. First, every fired case comes out with the primer backed out a good deal. That would normally indicate a headspace concern but Remington never got back with me about it.

Next, accuracy was lacking. Oh, I could shoot the odd 1" 100-yard group but duplicating it wasn't possible as the next group shot a half-hour later with the same components might go into 3" or more. Once I had a shot go clear off the paper and I use the same white and red Champion target as in some of the photos above. I spent $468 on bullets and propellants - not including components I already had on hand - without finding a load that would shoot accurately with any consistency.

A fellow club member who liked the looks of mine bought one and we comparison-tested them. His is a newer one that has a QR code (a square bar code-like thing you can scan with your phone) impressed into the receiver so it certainly has to be from the later batch. We each shot both rifles and got the same disappointing results including the primers backing out of the cases. I swapped out my 3-9x Leupold UltimateSlam scope for a Leupold 4-12x VX-2 and saw no improvement. Both scopes were in steel Leupold bases and lapped rings that were torqued as recommended. I'm a huge Remington fan - I own over 20 Model 700s alone - but this particular rifle is not a keeper. The other fellow sold his.

It does seem to like heavier bullets over lighter ones with 300-grainers shooting much tighter groups than 250s - if you can call three-plus inches at 100 yards "tighter."

Just to make sure the two shooters involved weren't the problem, I shot my T/C ProHunterFX and restored my self-confidence.

Other gripes I had were the similarity of the two versions (they differ only in stock construction and sights), weight (my laminated stock model went almost 12 pounds with a scope) and the gun's cost (double many other good rifles). Hunting rifles are carried a lot more than shot and I have arthritis in most of my joints so that weight is a deal-breaker for me. A media person from Remington's parent company who met with me at the Great American Outdoor Show in nearby Harrisburg last winter told me Remington plans to address all of my concerns. They are going to shorten the barrel on the laminated stock version by four inches and taper it, thus creating a carbine version that will also be lighter. And they cut the price of both versions by $350.

I'm glad some people are getting good results from their Ultimate MuzzleLoaders. That restores my faith in Remington and I hope this rifle gets its bugs worked out.

Ed
 
AveragEd said:
Wow - that's some great shooting! I'm in envy.

I was sent a Model 700UML for review last August and had a couple of problems right out of the box. First, every fired case comes out with the primer backed out a good deal. That would normally indicate a headspace concern but Remington never got back with me about it.

Next, accuracy was lacking. Oh, I could shoot the odd 1" 100-yard group but duplicating it wasn't possible as the next group shot a half-hour later with the same components might go into 3" or more. Once I had a shot go clear off the paper and I use the same white and red Champion target as in some of the photos above. I spent $468 on bullets and propellants - not including components I already had on hand - without finding a load that would shoot accurately with any consistency.

A fellow club member who liked the looks of mine bought one and we comparison-tested them. His is a newer one that has a QR code (a square bar code-like thing you can scan with your phone) impressed into the receiver so it certainly has to be from the later batch. We each shot both rifles and got the same disappointing results including the primers backing out of the cases. I swapped out my 3-9x Leupold UltimateSlam scope for a Leupold 4-12x VX-2 and saw no improvement. Both scopes were in steel Leupold bases and lapped rings that were torqued as recommended. I'm a huge Remington fan - I own over 20 Model 700s alone - but this particular rifle is not a keeper. The other fellow sold his.

It does seem to like heavier bullets over lighter ones with 300-grainers shooting much tighter groups than 250s - if you can call three-plus inches at 100 yards "tighter."

Just to make sure the two shooters involved weren't the problem, I shot my T/C ProHunterFX and restored my self-confidence.

Other gripes I had were the similarity of the two versions (they differ only in stock construction and sights), weight (my laminated stock model went almost 12 pounds with a scope) and the gun's cost (double many other good rifles). Hunting rifles are carried a lot more than shot and I have arthritis in most of my joints so that weight is a deal-breaker for me. A media person from Remington's parent company who met with me at the Great American Outdoor Show in nearby Harrisburg last winter told me Remington plans to address all of my concerns. They are going to shorten the barrel on the laminated stock version by four inches and taper it, thus creating a carbine version that will also be lighter. And they cut the price of both versions by $350.

I'm glad some people are getting good results from their Ultimate MuzzleLoaders. That restores my faith in Remington and I hope this rifle gets its bugs worked out.

Ed

Ed please NOTE...................... the target photos above WERE NOT shot with a Rem. Ultimate. They were shot from the ORIGINAL Ultimate Firearms Inc. BP Xpress .50cal. aka: Johnston Muzzleloader.

I do communicate with a guy that does get outstanding performance from his RUM.

I'm not saying this is true in any sense of the word, but IMO Remington sent the rifles out to soon, wanting to get them in the hands of hunters that season. There positively were some barrels that Remington admitted letting out. I had one given to me for setup and testing by an owner. The barrel was a total mess, full of some kind of gunk. When the gunk was finally removed, the barrel was full of machine marks. Remington was contacted, photos were sent. Long story short, Remington purchased the rifle back from the owner, who in turn purchased an Ultimate Firearms BP Xpress.
 
I'm aware of a fellow that frequents monstermuleys web site that recently acquired a new Remington Ultimate muzzleloader that is having some trouble getting his to shoot as well. Time will tell if he is able to get his to shoot acceptable groups.



"edited for spelling corrections"
 
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