Lets talk about TC Shock Waves

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Like Mike said..i think the petals will do the damage in the entrance area the most and peter of of energy fast...the bullet body will be the power plant ..a right placed shot will not effect the paunch area with the petals...but a gut shot will make a mess...

on a 12" ballistic gel block test I seen...the petals did not leave the block except 1..the block was shot dead center...and at 30-40 yards...so bullet still had plenty of energy at that distance and the petals did not go far...

I see lots of reports of deer kills at 30 40 50 yards and the shooter has 120 grains of powder loaded and says the shock wave exploded on entrance..or penciled thru and no blood...I my self think if you know your average shot is 100yards or less in the area you hunt why use such powerful loads when your shot will most likely be closer..now your bullet has hit the animal exceeding the optimal velocity performance of the bullet...it frags or just rides thru the animal with out expansion...
 
Al-53 said:
Like Mike said..i think the petals will do the damage in the entrance area the most and peter of of energy fast...the bullet body will be the power plant ..a right placed shot will not effect the paunch area with the petals...but a gut shot will make a mess...
on a 12" ballistic gel block test I seen...the petals did not leave the block except 1..the block was shot dead center...and at 30-40 yards...so bullet still had plenty of energy at that distance and the petals did not go far...
I see lots of reports of deer kills at 30 40 50 yards and the shooter has 120 grains of powder loaded and says the shock wave exploded on entrance..or penciled thru and no blood...I my self think if you know your average shot is 100yards or less in the area you hunt why use such powerful loads when your shot will most likely be closer..now your bullet has hit the animal exceeding the optimal velocity performance of the bullet...it frags or just rides thru the animal with out expansion...

It clearly indicates in the posted photos above, that the petals exited that jell. Although the probability may seem small, there's also the probability. I'm in no way saying its a bad bullet and I know I may be calling someone's baby slightly ugly. However bullets that fragment in any manner, certainly have a possibility of entering the paunch. The diaphragm isn't any tougher than the hide and muscle which the bullet passes through first. What happens if upon entry, the bullet strikes a rib?

Are we to assume that with this bullet, it has to be shot with a specific adjustment of propellant for it to work properly and that shot placement must be precise? What happens when a shooter owns a rifle that is only accurate shooting a higher volume charge, while using a specific bullet that should be shot with a lower volume charge? Does a shooter have more contributing factors than necessary?

Speaking only for myself......... I want a bullet that expands as designed, doesn't require a specific velocity to operate properly and retains the highest percentage of its original weight. I do not want a bullet that pencils or fragments. Barnes bullets expand as designed to velocities as low as 1,000fps, retain their original weight (minus any polymer tip). There's no fragmentation that may enter the paunch, only shooter shot placement will cause a paunch concern. I'll go back to what muley originally posted, you don't find bad posts about Barnes bullets, other than their price. If they work, continue to use them. Its all about choice......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-xOHEKLobQ
 
Other than where the petals may go, I have one other concern about bullets that shed the front part of the bullet.

Once the petals are gone you have a lighter, but more importantly you have a bullet that doesn't expand anymore for the rest of it's path through the vitals.

Is this better than a bullet like the Barnes that retains all it's weight, but also it's expanded size through the vitals?
 
ENCORE50A said:
Al-53 said:
Like Mike said..i think the petals will do the damage in the entrance area the most and peter of of energy fast...the bullet body will be the power plant ..a right placed shot will not effect the paunch area with the petals...but a gut shot will make a mess...
on a 12" ballistic gel block test I seen...the petals did not leave the block except 1..the block was shot dead center...and at 30-40 yards...so bullet still had plenty of energy at that distance and the petals did not go far...
I see lots of reports of deer kills at 30 40 50 yards and the shooter has 120 grains of powder loaded and says the shock wave exploded on entrance..or penciled thru and no blood...I my self think if you know your average shot is 100yards or less in the area you hunt why use such powerful loads when your shot will most likely be closer..now your bullet has hit the animal exceeding the optimal velocity performance of the bullet...it frags or just rides thru the animal with out expansion...

It clearly indicates in the posted photos above, that the petals exited that jell. Although the probability may seem small, there's also the probability. I'm in no way saying its a bad bullet and I know I may be calling someone's baby slightly ugly. However bullets that fragment in any manner, certainly have a possibility of entering the paunch. The diaphragm isn't any tougher than the hide and muscle which the bullet passes through first. What happens if upon entry, the bullet strikes a rib?

Really has no effect on the bullet even when shot through the shoulder - the bullet will not open until it encounters fluid. I have shot it through 3 2x6's then a paper target then into a plastic zip lock bag with about 2" of water out of the zip lock and into another target. The petals do not show up until the second target. The petals will not pass through hide even a thin Whitetail deer hide. I have found a petal in muscle tissue on the other side of a deer but it only penetrates about 1/4 - 1/2"

Are we to assume that with this bullet, it has to be shot with a specific adjustment of propellant for it to work properly[/quote]

Tom has tested the bullet down to 800 fps and in fluid it will still work as designed. Lower than that it may open somewhat and act like a normal mushrooming bullet but it will not have enough energy to break the petals off.

and that shot placement must be precise?

No pretty much the opposite - because of the way it operates you can miss the prime spot and as long as you get it into the fluid atmosphere it is going to do significant damage - believe me I know that one for a fact. The White I shot last year the bullet entered high - maybe a couple of inches below the back bone. - but yet the heart and the lung were pierced as well as a petal got the spinal cord.

What happens when a shooter owns a rifle that is only accurate shooting a higher volume charge, while using a specific bullet that should be shot with a lower volume charge? Does a shooter have more contributing factors than necessary?

Not sure I understand this question with the Bloodline high velocity is not the problem - Brass is a very durable substance - the more velocity you shoot it with the longer the range you can expect it to work. Bloodline problems could develop with a velocity of less than 800 FPS.

Speaking only for myself......... I want a bullet that expands as designed, doesn't require a specific velocity to operate properly

All hunting bullets require a specific velocity to work as designed. Especially when you are talking about expanding bullets.


and retains the highest percentage of its original weight. I do not want a bullet that pencils or fragments.

Normally I would have agreed totally with this statement. The fragmenting design came from Germany where people hunt with much smaller caliber rifles than we Americans do. And throughout Europe they harvest large breed deer with these small caliber bullets that designed to do what they do.

Barnes bullets expand as designed to velocities as low as 1,000fps, retain their original weight (minus any polymer tip).

And yet the Nosler Partitions will expand through a wider range of velocities than any bullets of the time and retain 90% of their weight,

There's no fragmentation that may enter the paunch, only shooter shot placement will cause a paunch concern.

Fragmentation is not the best word to describe the action of the Bloodline although that is the easiest word for us to apply. The real description is Segmenting Expansion Bullets.

I'll go back to what muley originally posted, you don't find bad posts about Barnes bullets, other than their price. If they work, continue to use them. Its all about choice......
can not argue that point at all and wouldn't try. But basically that is why I shot Nosler Partitions rather than Barnes in the first place. It was not easy for me to move from them but today - I made the right move. Same thing about pickups I am locked into a Ford while others are not. The only thing I can really say I am really glad today that I had the courage to try something new when it came to the switch from Noslers to Bloodlines. I would not go back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-xOHEKLobQ

Here is my definition of a quality Hunting Bullet.

The Hunting bullet should be the most lethal big game hunting bullet available. The bullet design should allow the bullet to penetrate 2” to 3”, through bone or tissue, before it starts to expand the petals. After the bullet starts to expand or shed it petals it should adversely affect all the surrounding internal organs. The combination between the expansion of the bullet and/or release of the petals and the creation of hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that can be 13” to 15” long. I believe that in most case the bullet should pass through the body providing a secondary exit hole for blood and debris. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. Those animals that don’t go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill. Using a bullet matching this description will normally result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot.

You might have a real hard time with the new Lehigh coming out... they have a new bullet with what is called a XP nose. It is non-expanding and non-segmenting bullet. It is a solid and does a great deal of damage by collecting fluids directing the fluid into a column and then shooting a jet stream of internal fluids up and outward cutting organs from the force of the fluids.





 
Muley Hunter said:
Other than where the petals may go, I have one other concern about bullets that shed the front part of the bullet.

Once the petals are gone you have a lighter, but more importantly you have a bullet that doesn't expand anymore for the rest of it's path through the vitals.

Pete it really does not have to the vitals have been destroyed by the petals and the hydrostatic shock of the bullet passing through.

This deer was shot with a Bloodline. There was nothing but liquid in the chest cavity when I opened him up. Notice what it did to the blood in the animal. It all congealed into large tubes of solid blood. The heart and lungs were gone.



Look how high in the chest cavity this shot was - it actually passed over the top of the heart and out - but yet there was no heart left in the animal.

Is this better than a bullet like the Barnes that retains all it's weight, but also it's expanded size through the vitals?

I know a lot of this is hard to accept or even visualize but until you do it your self you will not believe it.
 
Have you shot an elk with one Mike? I'd love to see the results, and what load you used.
 
Muley Hunter said:
Have you shot an elk with one Mike? I'd love to see the results, and what load you used.

I have gotten a couple of cow elk with a Lehigh/Bloodline. The load was 110 grains T7-3f and .458x300 grain Blood line.

I know you are not fond of dragging an elk out whole with a 4x4 but that is what we were fortunate enough to do in this particular case.







The second cow was with a Remington 700ML just after the Lehigh bullets came out. She went down on the spot after she had turned 180* I remember I was really worried about this one. After the smoke cleared I could not see her at all. As I walked to the spot I was really worried about the whole thing. It was shot with a 120 grain T7-2f and the same .458x300 Lehigh.



Tom got this bull in Colorado in 2013 using a Bloodline pushed by a 120 grains of BH. I think he was shooting the 452x250 grain bullet, maybe the 275 brain Bloodline

 
Hey! There's that old guy again on the ATV. Who is that guy? :D

Well, you can 't complain about the terminal performance of the Bloodline. However it goes about it. It works.

Do you think the orange sabots they come with will fit my bore? Keeping in mind a T-EZ is a perfect fit. The Bloodline is a .001 bigger bullet than the Barnes.
 
Muley Hunter said:
Hey! There's that old guy again on the ATV. Who is that guy? :D

I think I looked a lot better when I was young - I hate getting old but it just keeps happening.

Well, you can 't complain about the terminal performance of the Bloodline. However it goes about it. It works.

Do you think the orange sabots they come with will fit my bore? Keeping in mind a T-EZ is a perfect fit. The Bloodline is a .001 bigger bullet than the Barnes.

You are using the .451 Barnes correct? What weight are you shooting? The 300 grain Bloodline is a .458, the 452 Bloodline is 250 grains. The 250 can be loaded in a many different sabots and I am sure you could get one to fit....

I went back and looked - I think you are using a .451x250 grain bullet with EZ Load sabot. I am not sure that the .458 with the MMP sabot will load if that bullet is the fit you want. I do not think you are interested in shooting a 300 grain bullet any way. How many petals on the sabot that works for you? If it has 4 petals it is the same as a HPH-24. If it has 3 petals it is the HPH-3p-EZ load sabot.

Let me know..
 
It's the blue 4 petal that comes with the 250gr T-EZ. Someone said that was the HPH-24.
 
Muley Hunter said:
It's the blue 4 petal that comes with the 250gr T-EZ. Someone said that was the HPH-24.

That is what I thought so it will be an HPH-24... it really is not the true MMP HPH-3P-EZ load sabot, but with the .451 bullet it accomplishes the same thing. So actually you have two slimmer choices. The 'Crush Rib' by Harvester which really isn't slimmer but with the grooves in the sabot it is easier to load, and the 3P.

I think I still have your address - I will see if I can round up a few parts for you and you can push the 452x250 through your bore and see what you think.
 
We use the 300 gr. SST in our 50 caliber muzzys. We don't hunt a lot with them as we typically bowhunt, but we have had decent success with the SST. Most are pass throughs with short bloodtrails.
My Dad killed a bull elk last year with one. Shot was about 30 yards. 100 gr. Pyrodex. Here are some pics of the recovered bullet.


This was found just under the hide on the broadside bull. The bull staggered about 5 steps and went down.
For those of you having trouble with the SST, how many of you are using the 300 gr.? Just curious if one weight is better than another?
 

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I cannot say I have had problems with the SSTs. I like them but I have found the 300s seem to be a tougher bullet than the 250s.
 
Is that a good thing jims? It seems the failure reports are of pencil holes which leads me to believe they may be too tough.
Should I be shooting the 250's??
 
silentstalker said:
Is that a good thing jims? It seems the failure reports are of pencil holes which leads me to believe they may be too tough.
Should I be shooting the 250's??

I think the penciling is only occurring at the closer ranges. Shooting beyond 100 yard they seem to perform pretty much as you would hope. I believe the problem lies in to much velocity at the closer ranges.
 
Ok, we don't shoot magnum charges and most shots on deer are not ultra close. With elk they are tough enough the SST seems to work great even close up. Thanks!
 
I have only used them on deer. I do not know how much tougher an elk is than a deer.
I have never had them pencil through, more the opposite. On lung shots the 250s work well but can still shed the jacket, the 300s seemed to hold together better.
Not to change the subject here but the Barnes Originals have worked well and XTPs but I have many SSTs and never felt I was at a disadvantage with them on lung shots from close to 175 yards. Never a lost deer and most did not travel more than 50 to 75 feet.
 
That is great to hear. I think I will stick with my 300 gr. SST and continue to shoot for the lungs! Thanks for the report!
 
Talking Shock Wave and Shock Wave ONLY suck at best, great for target plinking, too expensive for that..Now speaking 25% success in media 1 in 4 actually opens as should, (water jugs, wet news paper) accurate oh yes no issues on accuracy, dependability on opening that is my issue.
 

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