heavy conicals

i have an old super 9*1 and a basicly new ultra mag sportsmans model. i would like to shoot 495 ne and 600whites. has anybody got a favorite load for these?we have big ground squirrels in idaho!really id just like to work upa load . i hunt elk in island park,idaho which is a grizzly bear nursery and would like to have the right medicine if one wishes to play.i know doc shot 120gr of pyro p behind a 600.so thought id ask what you folks thought

Wow, I would never consider using 120 Pyrodex P behind such a big bullet. Way too much recoil! I would probably start at 80 gr and work up to 100 as an absolute max. My current elk load with a White rifle is 90 of fffg 777 behind a 460 gr bullshop bullet. I use a wad between powder and bullet.

I know a guy who killed a nice bull with 90 gr of pyrodex P and a 460 gr No Excuse at over 250 yards.

You need to be careful with real heavy loads. At the least it can get you to start flinching. At the worst it can detach a retina. Not good.

Muley Hunter said:

You need to be careful with real heavy loads. At the least it can get you to start flinching. At the worst it can detach a retina. Not good.

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Those detached retinas can be brutal on recoils, even coming from a horse, right at the end of this Paul Blart Mall Cop 2 Trailer. :d'oh!: :huh?: :mrgreen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6yXgbIIuPU

My .504 S91 likes 90gr. T72Fg with a 488 gr. Batchief trashcan an unlubed wad that's plenty stout for me!! 8)

hanks for the comments.i shot six 495ne this morning with 120 of pyro p not as bad as my7mag for recoil. but like you said ill go slow on the600.j ust bored and its fun to work up a load.i usually shoot a pp 500sw boolitat 450grs with 90grs of pyro p

deepcreek said:

hanks for the comments.i shot six 495ne this morning with 120 of pyro p not as bad as my7mag for recoil. but like you said ill go slow on the600.j ust bored and its fun to work up a load.i usually shoot a pp 500sw boolitat 450grs with 90grs of pyro p

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Also understand pushing a lead conical that fast up the bore you are more than likely going to create a leading build up in the bore.

I'm picking up this "older" thread rather than starting a new one on the subject because I just developed a load for elk hunting and seem to be getting some flack from other ML shooters about the need for it, claiming big bullet with 90 grains powder is enough. I have a recent thread with Subject: "Final Load for CVA Optima NW" that I am now moving to this thread to continue on.
For my load development I tested 5 different lead conical bullets with 90 to 150 grains Pyro in 10 grain increments.
My goal was to get the heaviest lead conical bullet (<400 gr) pushed with the most powder and shoot less than 2" at 100 yards.

I landed on my ML Load for elk hunting of Hdy Great Plains 385 gr lead conical with 140 grains Pyrodex RS with 1 1/2" group at 100 yards.

I decided to crunch some ballistics numbers to see if it was all worth it.
Using a "Muzzle Velocity vs. Grains (volume) of Powder per grain of Bullet" graph I calculated the velocity ranges of 90 grains Pyrodex versus 140 grains Pyrodex using the Hdy Great Plains 385 grain bullet:
90/385 = 0.234 which on the graph is minimum 1350, maximum 1530 fps
140/385 = 0.364 which on the graph is minimum 1600, maximum 1750 fps
I accept the general rule of needing a minimum of 1,000 ft/lb of Energy to kill an elk.
Using Handloads.com ballistics calculator, and Hdy GP bullet ballistic coeffient of 0.148, and 3 inches high at 100 yards POI with minimum velocity:
The 90 grain load drops below 1,000 Energy at 100 yards and has about 5 inch trajectory range ( -0.5"to +4.7"). Maximum range then is 90 yards.
The 140 grain load drops below 1,000 Energy at 160 yards and has about 7.5 inch trajectory range ( -3.5"to +4.0"). Maximum range then is 150 yards.
The punishment of the heavy load is worth it to me for the "payback".
I examined my barrel and found no leading so must be a good bullet fit in my barrel. Everything appears to be perfect for this "heavy conical" elk load.

Is there anyone out there shooting lead conicals with over 120 grains of powder in their muzzle loaders?

I tried the 600 gr with 120 pyrodex p that Doc listed on his site . The recoil was way to much for my liking but it was a good load for sure . I actually decided that if I ever wanted to hunt elk with that load that I would simply use a heavier gun that soaked up recoil better so I have Bestill building me a 700ml conversion with a 1:24 twist so I can use it for regular saboted bullets , light loads Like a 465 gr conical with 70 gr powder or I can load it up for the 600 with 120 gr powder or more and it should be the answer.
We have to have 1700 ftlbs at the muzzle to meet regulations so the elk I got in 2016 I had to move up to almost 100 gr powder with a 465 conical to get that out of my White Super 91

My 12b rifle with a 850gr bullet over 75gr Swiss 2F (950fps) is a pleasure to shoot, even in an 8# rifle. 120gr was a little much. If you're accuracy is there with a heavier bullet, so will the penetration.
385gr bullet at 1700fps


550gr bullet at 1200fps


Recoil.

37lbs of recoil is a pretty good poke. Equal to a .375 H&H Mag with a 300gr bullet.

Pushing a hollow base and hollow point soft lead bullet with that kinda powder charge is asking for issues. It aint no 600gr pill at 1200fps. IMO its way outside its design envelope. A 1-28 twist will handle a heavier conical no problem without having to break about 1400fps.

I agree and probably why they used light 60-70gr powder loads with the original mini ball. A big heavy hollow base conical.

Rick what program or balastic calculator are you using ?

Dougs136Schwartz said:

Rick what program or balastic calculator are you using ?

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Above was just the Hornady Ballistic Calculator, it's simple. The recoil calculator is handloads.com; simple too..
I also like JBM Trajectory - as there are many more variables to input and it will do finer distance increments.
No doubt there are many others.

52Bore said:

Dougs136Schwartz said:

Rick what program or balastic calculator are you using ?

Click to expand...

Above was just the Hornady Ballistic Calculator, it's simple. The recoil calculator is handloads.com; simple too..
I also like JBM Trajectory - as there are many more variables to input and it will do finer distance increments.
No doubt there are many others.

Click to expand...

This one is handy, The one i go to mostly for ease of use

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/