Knurling a Bloodline

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sabotloader

Keep Shooting Muzzleloaders - They are a Blast
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Or it could be called 'Making a Colorado Legal ML Bullet'

For some time now I have been trying to knurl bullets to shoot without a sabot or full bore from one my Knight ULite. I have been rolling the bullets between to files creating a knurled bullet. This seemed to work very well on copper/lead bullets like the Speer .50x300 gr. Gold Dot and on Barnes XPB bullets, both their 50x275 and 50x325. Copper is so much softer than the brass of the Lehigh bullets.

The problem I am had is when knurling the brass bullets I have to apply so much pressure to knurl the bullet I often get different lifts on the knurling. Some of the bullets have a barely enough lift to keep them from just falling down the barrel others fit what I would call perfect and still others I have to use a short starter to get them started. The odd thing is between the ones that are loose to the bullets that are tight I really do not see a difference in accuracy.

Alleyooper-GM54-120 and I some discussions on how I might solve the problem - economically. There are many tools you can purchase to complete the job or even a tools that you use in conjunction with a lathe to get the job done. But all of these have one thing in common - EXPENSIVE - well expensive for me and the amount I would use it.

Well last night thinking about the problem - I thought of what I might try a - a simple tubing cutter! It worked but it was somewhat tedious because it would not hold the bullet very stable.

This morning I called Lehigh Dave and bounced the question of him. I talked about using the tubing cutter but that I could not really keep the base of the bullet stable when turning the bullet in the tubing cutter. He was somewhat surprised that I had thought of and used the cutter, but was very quickly telling me that I 'displacing and raising the brass on each side of the cutting wheel - essentially increasing the diameter. I guess what gave me the thought was Lehigh's original Sabotless bullet.



Basically I was doing the same thing but with a lot less lift. You can see I have indexed the knob of the tool to get approximately the same lift for each cut. The Allen wrench serves as the tool to turn the bullet in the cutter.



In our conversation Lehigh Dave suggested using a 'Might Mite" cutter because it has to full length wheels to stabilize the bullet. Well after that conversation - I headed to the store and found this cutter. The way it was built was exactly as Lehigh Dave described although while at the store I found that not all of these small cutters have the full length stabilizing wheels. This is Model 104 Ridgid Cutter



After I got back to the house could not resist giving it a try - work perfect... It is a little like reloading center fire shells with the older presses I have. It is slow but it works and it is not like I am going to do hundreds of bullets.

I did end up indexing the knob of the cutter to achieve the lift I wanted. I ended up with a size of .502 of the bullet. The bullet without knurling at the area between the Lehigh knurls measures .499 to .4995. With the .502 diameter od the cut knurls It seems to about correct to fit my bore. I will nor more later in the week. My problem is that I only have 9 bullets - got some more on order.

This composite might show more than I can explain.



For those wondering about a gas seal - I use a MMP sub bridge under the bullet.



I do apologize for the length of this - writing is really not a strength of mine...
 
I bet Dave could make two knurled rollers for that tubing cutter.

Be sure to keep the bearings well oiled.
 
Good thinking SL. Did you just make one cut on each, or multiple?

I guess the range time will tell the story.

Maybe you could just tell Lehigh Dave to get on with making the sabotless bullets and save you some work! :lol: :lol:
 
Mike I wonder if something like this can be used in the roller section of the tubing cutter ...just need to know the size...thing that may be a problem is the tension to get your perfect knurl..you have a cutting wheel oppisite the rollers so it may take more tension with the knurl wheels thus causing the cutter to cut deep..unless you can fit one of the smooth rollers in cutters place

http://www.amazon.com/HHIP-2220-0016-Di ... ing+wheels
 
Al-53 said:
Mike I wonder if something like this can be used in the roller section of the tubing cutter ...just need to know the size...thing that may be a problem is the tension to get your perfect knurl..you have a cutting wheel oppisite the rollers so it may take more tension with the knurl wheels thus causing the cutter to cut deep..unless you can fit one of the smooth rollers in cutters place

http://www.amazon.com/HHIP-2220-0016-Di ... ing+wheels

That is interesting I will need to do some more looking at that option...

mike
 
Might work, looking forward to your testing on paper.
For me, I never had any luck with hard lead bullets (like wheel weights) in a ML. I concluded they just don't seem to upset like a softer one. Even pre-rifled hard bullets thru a piece of the actual barrel hasn't proven better than soft w/o pre-rifling. Gas checks didn't even perform better.
Let's see where this goes for you.
Good luck.
 
Knurled and sized bullets can shoot very well. Seems to me Bestill shot some excellent groups with his and so did his brother and couple others. Didnt one of the Knight employees use them too at the last match? He was using a 45cal and shooting Parker BEs.

Recently at a informal SML match in KY, shooters were shooting sub MOA at 300 yards with "pre-engraved" and land rider bullets.

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com ... ch-results

Here is the 100 yard winners and the group sizes.
First place, .353 Second place, .530 Third place, .535 Fourth place, .591 Fifth place, .615

Here are the results for the 200 match.
First place, .661 Second place, .924 Third place, 1.211 Fourth place, 1.234 Fifth place, 1.382

Here are the results for the 300 yard match
First place, 1.330 Second place, 1.479 Third place, 2.116 Fourth place 2.457 Fifth place 2.478

Im 99% sure every one of the above shooters was using either a land rider or a "pre-engraved" jacketed or Barnes bullet. Not a sabot shooter in the entire bunch but they were all 45cals too.

Carlos and a few others have shot the Lehighs sabotless with a fair amount of success.
 
yes most of the guys at the shoot used full form or smooth formed bullets...in 1 picture you can see the press set up at the bench....

The Parker BE most times fit rifle right from the box....I was sent some and they fit my Knight and Accura nice...I added a little knurl to them ..1 roll on the files to just snug them a bit more...barnes was another that fit the .45 nice from box...most of the .451 bullets fit nice..but the .452 bullets need sizing...

alot of them guys shoot the expensive bullets like the Parker match hunters/emax...
the Bestill Gunners were shooting the parker 270 grain bullets...not sure if sized
 
Parkers do not fit most Pacnors straight from the package or the current Brux being sold. My Pacnor is .450 and my Parkers are .4505. The Brux is .450. Current Parkers are .451ish. Mine are older rebranded by Traditions. I have to size mine down and knurl up. The McGowen 45cal barrels usually take no sizing for Parker land riders

Typical factory OEM 50cals range a bit more in bore diameter than our custom barrels. Ive seen bores from .499 to .504. I have owned a "over sized" Accura 45 and heard of a few others that were over .452.

Now, i size mine down, knurl up and then make the kurling uniform with another die. Lee sells a standard .501 die that might work for THIS application or at least it could be honed out without too much effort if slightly larger is needed.
 
Sorry, I guess it's my bad as I thought Sabotloader was knurling bullets for shooting BP (or sub) under this section, not smokeless.
 
52Bore said:
Sorry, I guess it's my bad as I thought Sabotloader was knurling bullets for shooting BP (or sub) under this section, not smokeless.

52Bore you are correct, I am shooting 50 cal. bullets made Speer, Barnes, and Lehigh or Lehigh Bloodline to shoot in a 50 cal. Knight. I am shooting T7-2f or 3f depending on which ignition system I am using.
 
From reading post how are you going to get bullet to swell for good rifling engagement and sealing. Some anneal Barnes tez but even then it takes pretty stout load to get it done.
 
Bestill...can you anneal a barnes TEZ ..wouldn't that melt the ballistic tip ? I don't know why i am asking...do they remove the tips....
 
bestill said:
From reading post how are you going to get bullet to swell for good rifling engagement and sealing. Some anneal Barnes tez but even then it takes pretty stout load to get it done.

The subject rifle is beyond my abilities. I am guessing the brass Lehigh's do very little obturation if any due to the gas pressure applied. There is a gentleman Lutz Moeller, a German I believe, that suggest that a bullet can ride the lands and achieve stabilization. Lehigh Dave suggested this a few years back. Since then I have done several shooting trips trying to learn more about the subject. I am really surprised how little contact with the bore is actually need to achieve accuracy.

Some of the bullets that I have knurled and load move down the barrel with very little - so little I wonder how they stay on the powder. Fortunately I am not hunting with them so the fear is not a problem - but yet these lightly load bullets shoot with very good accuracy.

This is a Moeller bullet.

lm-105-2007.jpg


With his design the lands of the rifle do not touch the body of the bullet only the lands are engaging the bore.

This is an old theory - the bullets were built for the Burnside carbine and use the same principle but actually divide in flight.



Again I know very little about the science of it all and my very crud method of knurling bullets to achieve the 'right' lift to fill for the most part the grooves of the bore are a backyard attempt, for the most part seem to work well.

Just wish I had better equipment to do what I do. The knurling I am doing is done to few bullets to justify a large investment in tools and equipment. The real sad part is the a copper jacket bullet or even the Barnes XPB are very easy to knurl and achieve the lift for filling the groove - but yet I am so stuck on the Lehigh/Bloodline's 'Terminal Performance', I continue to attempt to make them work perfectly each and every time. Even knowing they are not the most accurate bullet out there. But through 200+ yards they are as accurate as I need for hunting and provide the performance that I want.

Or is it just stubbornness???
 
Al-53 said:
Bestill...can you anneal a barnes TEZ ..wouldn't that melt the ballistic tip ? I don't know why i am asking...do they remove the tips....

Several anneal Barnes tez and yes remove tips.
 
Sabotloader,
A Barnes xpb 500 annealed would be a great alternative to what your after maybe
 
bestill said:
Sabotloader,
A Barnes xpb 500 annealed would be a great alternative to what your after maybe

Correct they probably would be perfect... but then again here comes the stubbornness - I want to make the Lehighs work as I have more faith in them.

Even without annealing the Barnes bullets they work and shoot very well. Actually the .500x275 XPB works better than the .500x325 in the knurling process because the 275 is a little bit larger in diameter. Yet when shot side by side with the knurled Lehigh/Bloodline - there is no discernible difference.

Another ODD thing... the grip... I can load a bullet that I would say just barely catches the lands and a bullet that I have to use a short starter with and really push down hard with the ram rod and again at the target you would be hard pressed to see the difference in accuracy.









 

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