Federal 50 Caliber Muzzleloader Bullet Revisited

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TripleSe7en said:

.............It seems so many bullets are being discussed here for 200-400 shots. The audience for those lengthy shots is so-so small in this industry.................. I used to post heavily on muzzleloader boards, then stopped several years ago. When I returned in December, I noticed immediately that the average joe shooter was missing-mostly and companies that represent bullet-making, gun making, sabot-making and breechplug-making, were doing most-all of the posting.

We need more average-Joes to return to various Muzzleloader boards. I'm talking the 95% group that shoots 150 yards and under. So wherever you are, please return and lets talk basic muzzleloading, offering our helping hands, once again.

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I tend to disagree. More and more people are shooting muzzleloaders than ever before. They're also using a muzzleloader during the regular firearms season, in other words, its now their primary big game firearm. 24% of Michigan hunters use a muzzleloader during ALL firearms seasons, as their primary firearm for whitetail.

Things are changing and will continue to change and the "average-Joe" is part of it. Shooters have realized that muzzleloaders aren't just 50yd firearms any more and are learning to capitalize on the muzzleloaders true capabilities. This has been going on for years.....

Please remember, most of the guys shooting long range, were and still are, "Average-Joe's". They/we just stepped up to the next level and that's not to say they're/we're selfish. How many times can you punch a single hole at 50 or 100yds and improve on anything? IMO it gets extremely boring, so why not step up the challenge?

Getting close is a hunting challenge. Long shots are a shooting challenge. Just pick the kind of challenge that suits you.

Made it out again this morning. This VIDEO shows what transpired.
















The chronograph was placed at 13 feet, and it measured a speed of 2170 fps. This calculates to a muzzle velocity of 2190 fps. The powder charge was 130g Blackhorn. Distance from rifle to the jugs was 25 yd, and at that range the bullet was traveling at about 2070 fps. The bullet was apparently two pieces when it entered the fourth jug, which one sees in the following photo.









Part of the bullet stayed in the fourth jug; most of the bullet seems to have exited out the right side, which one can deduce from the hole in the side of jug 4 shown in the next photo. The fifth jug is intact, and the piece of the bullet left behind in the fourth jug is shown sitting on top of the fifth jug.

TripleSe7en said:

I would not trade my never used, dust-covered box of 230 gr XTPs for these Federals, one-for-one.
If the bullet does not expand, or only expands at x-numbered speed, it never sees the inside of my bore. ......

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Umm.....it appears to me, this Federal expands at all speeds down to about 1150 fps.

HMM? If I recall right 1150-1200fps MV Is right about the velocity I got from my Scout pistol shooting 90 gr 3f and #11 caps and 290/300 grain bullets. I was hoping for better low velocity performance from these. I will be doing similar testing soon. My initial session showed promise for accuracy out to 100 yards in my 209 converted Scout with 1 50gr Pyrodex pellet. I will be heading out Thursday for another session. I will be testing 50 and 80 grs of 777 pellets out to 100 yards. Once I get the new scope sighted in at 100 yards I will be doing some jug/chronograph testing. Hopefully I can do 1200 fps MV... more would make me happier! Whatever the case I like the ease of loading and if the accuracy holds or hopefully improves with the new Simmons 4x32 compared to my 3moa Accudot. I would settle for any expansion at 50-75 yards which will be my limit for hunting. 200 yard 2-3" groups for paper punching is another goal.

Jim

This morning the powder charge was 95g. Once again the distance from rifle to front jug was 25 yard. The bullet speed at the front jug was clocked at 1709 fps. From this measurement the muzzle velocity was calculated to be 1815 fps.












The RECORDING.






After







The last two jugs were intact. The bullet was found in the third jug, even though the jug had an exit hole. Evidently the bullet bounced off the fourth jug back into the third jug. Perhaps the face of the bullet was so flat is why? When it isn't so wet, and rainy, it seems i should look, in that tall grass for the bullet from yesterday. Looked for it yesterday, and also today, but didn't get down on my knees. The photo shows the bullet retrieved from the third jug this morning.

I'd like to see the same test at 100yds.

Already done.... equal to @ 100 yard when using 80g powder, as per the ballistic chart posted previously in this thread.

ronlaughlin said:

Already done.... equal to @ 100 yard when using 80g powder, as per the ballistic chart posted previously in this thread.

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Still @ 100 yards with your simulated load it did not have enough energy to open to the full extent.

sabotloader said:

Still @ 100 yards with your simulated load it did not have enough energy to open to the full extent.

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Mike, would an elk hit in the chest by that bullet with that amount of energy survive?

ronlaughlin said:

sabotloader said:

Still @ 100 yards with your simulated load it did not have enough energy to open to the full extent.

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Mike, would an elk hit in the chest by that bullet with that amount of energy survive?

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See I do not know - what is the energy @ 100. To me that bullet acted much like a Nosler - it did not open to a pancake so if it has the energy to pass through the hide (I think that is a given) with the smaller diameter of opening it does stand a chance of working well. So what is your computed velocity at 100 where it open partially - then what would it be at 150 or 200 - will it still open at those ranges and what energy does it have?

Just from what I am seeing - you would be much better off continuing to use your Noslers... I know they open as far as designed and work as designed at 200+ yards.

Mike, the velocity of that bullet was not computed, it was measured right there at the location of the jugs at 1335 fps. In my opinion there is no elk in the world that would survive a hit in it's chest from that bullet, at that speed, carrying that energy.

According to this ballistic chart provided by Federal, the powder load needed to achieve that speed at 100 yard is 80g of Blackhorn powder.











The chart indicates if one wished the load to be sufficient for a 150 yard shot, one needs to use 100g of powder. For a 200 yard shot, one would use 120g of powder.

My interest in this bullet was piqued by the Colorado regulation. To me, it seems this bullet is perfect to use for hunting elk with a muzzle loader in Colorado. After all, when one is using iron sights, any shot over 150 yards at an elk is probably best not tried. Here in South Dakota, we face a similar sight restriction; no magnified optic is allowed. This bullet will work just fine for me on a deer at 150 yard or less when using about 100g of powder, and no magnified optic.

In the past i have killed several critter using bullets in sabot at long distances, and this coming season if i could use a magnified optic, i would use a 40 caliber bullet in a 45 caliber rifle for antelope, and for deer on the prairie. For deer in the timber, i would indeed use a 45 caliber Nosler in a sabot, in my trusty X7.

So, maybe 100gr of BH, and max hunting distance of 100yds will keep the bullet in the sweet zone.

I'm good with that if I hunt muzzy season.

About what i plan to use on deer in this neighborhood, this year; an elk tag is at least 12 year out.

That hard to get huh?

Here it is indeed difficult to draw an elk tag. If i really wanted to hunt elk, i could go up to Montana, but that would cost a very pretty penney; maybe less than $1000. When we lived in Missoula, i purchased my very first elk tag for $1. Probably the next 5 or 10 were the same cost, but then it went up to $3. These days, i could still purchase an elk tag over the counter, but for some more than $1. Last year my deer tag, good for 50 mile East of here, cost $40.

No complaints, just observations; me i am thankful for all the past seasons, and hopefully for another, this next fall.

ronlaughlin said:

Already done.... equal to @ 100 yard when using 80g powder, as per the ballistic chart posted previously in this thread.

Click to expand...

If I can achieve something close to this at 75 yards from my pistol I will be satisfied. The ease of loading is what is most important to me. Adaquate accuracy is all I need... 3" 75 yard groups. Expansion is important but not top priority for Michigan deer hunting... If need be I will head/neck shoot them.

Jim

ronlaughlin,

"Last winter i tried to purchase more of these bullets, but they were out of stock at the store. I requested i be notified when they came in stock. Last week an email came, and some of these copper conicals were ordered. You can understand why i figure these bullets were made recently, and are not old stock."

Did you contact Federal to verify the age of these? I purchased some from a store late winter and was told I was the only one to do so for a long time I bought all they had. Hearing they had possible made changes to them a few months later I back ordered some from Cabela's and when they arrived I could not differentiate between the packages.

Jim

No, i haven't contacted Federal. It occurs to me that this may not be a good bullet to use in your hand gun A muzzle velocity around 1200 fps may not be enough. Have you considered something like a 250g XTP, or some such?