Knight 1-18 twist, 209 BH

Has anyone tried a heavy conical with Bh 209 ? Bullet is 500 grn, 70 grn BH by weight. Want to try this in a knight bare primer

Not in a knight . Have shot 70 gr Blackhorn on top of 10 gr pyrodex p in a white with #11 cap and a 460 gr conical .

I might add that just because ive done it doesn't mean anyone else should . So i am not recommending it to anyone just answering your question

I believe it was 46 or 47gr by weight that gave the same velocity (Chrono) as 90gr Swiss 2F by weight. Using a 525gr GG
I wasn't shooting, but was there to witness.
Start low and work your way up..

52Bore said:

I believe it was 46 or 47gr by weight that gave the same velocity (Chrono) as 90gr Swiss 2F by weight. Using a 525gr GG
I wasn't shooting, but was there to witness.
Start low and work your way up..

Click to expand...

90 gr swiss by volume you mean , right?

Ive shot upto 80gr by volume and a 460gr with a 1-22 twist .450x.458 barrel. I may have shot a 488gr also. MV was a little over 1400fps. 60gr by volume was in the 1220fps range. A .460x.60 fiber wad seemed to work fine. I also tried wool and wool plus a fiber. The conicals were sized .001 over land size and loaded fairly easy.

Thanks for info, I'm assuming recoil is heavy

I shoot a Knight 45cal 1-20 MHDE and use a 500 grain paper patched bullet produced by Buffalo Arms. I am currently using 80 gr-vol. of BH 209. Extremely accurate, but on the ragged edge of primer failure. I am looking at lowering the load to 70 to 75 gr-vol in the future.

I know very little about heavy paper patch and blackhorn. But if 80gr by volume is pushing primer near failure i would definitely back it down.

I will share this because i think it is worth considering. Blackhorn has a very long pressure curve and will definitely need proper flash hole .030 and flame channel .156 in knight to help protect primer.

Opinion
Upon ignition of Blackpowder there is pressure spike and then curve falls quickly so amount of flow back thru .030 vent is minimal vs time for bullet to exit and time under high pressure.
On other hand blackhorn has a long pressure curve which would subject.030 vent to a longer high pressure time.
Maybe crazy but i believe thats why plunger guns can shoot equal velocity load of Blackpowder fine but blackhorn creates problems.
I will throw this out there in smokeless world guys shoot loads with fast powder pressures of near 50k and i shoot blackhorn loads of 30k and we require identical breech plug design to not over pressure primer.

I believe this will be relative info when shooting500 + grain bullets and blackhorn

axischem said:

I shoot a Knight 45cal 1-20 MHDE and use a 500 grain paper patched bullet produced by Buffalo Arms. I am currently using 80 gr-vol. of BH 209. Extremely accurate, but on the ragged edge of primer failure. I am looking at lowering the load to 70 to 75 gr-vol in the future.

Click to expand...

Which brand of primers. I think i used Win209s in mine but it was a Savage plug with a used Lehigh vent liner. Im sure it had grown a couple 1/1000ths over new.

I would look at Westerns BH209 cartridge data. http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-content/ ... gedata.pdf

The hottest load with a 500gr or larger bullet is 53gr by weight. It produces 28.4kpsi. Peak pressure is likely a tad less in a ML but its only a guess. That load is not compressed though its only %70 of case volume. It is using a dacron filler and a wad so total case volume may be 100%. I dont have a 45-120 case or 500gr bullet i can use to verify volume.

Compressed loads stop at a 405gr bullet and none of them break 28kpsi. They are all using a over powder wad.

In contrast, the hottest load for a ML listed on Westerns website is 100gr by volume and a 444gr Powerbelt. No pressure data is given but they list it as max. They do not recommend a higher charge with the 444gr PB.

Doesn't knight have Leigh vent liners in breech plug? You are saying maybe go by the BPCR loads on westerns ballistic table.PP bullets in a ML have to be bumped , will BH do this?

Blackhorn will definitely bump a 500 gr pp pure lead bullet .
I think50 -55 grain by weight of blackhorn with500 gr bullet it will eat Lehigh vent quickly. My guess is .028 vent will be be .038 in under100 shots.
If you use 80 gr swiss weight56 gr blackhorn weight should be very similar

fivebull said:

Doesn't knight have Leigh vent liners in breech plug? You are saying maybe go by the BPCR loads on westerns ballistic table.PP bullets in a ML have to be bumped , will BH do this?

Click to expand...

Yes but the plugs Knight sells have the vent liner brazed in place. When that vent erodes you will either replace the entire plug OR drill it out and replace it with a vent from Lehigh. He still sells just the vent liners.

I believe ronlaughlin has done it on the newer Knight plugs.

Thanks all for help and advice

Today I went out and shot my Knight 45 cal 1/20" with the 80 gr/v BH209, 500 grain PP Buffalo bullet. The breech plug I use is a Lehigh with the removable vent liner. To help with the primer concerns ( primer pressure signs and erosion ) I had the vent liner platinum lined leaving a .026 diameter flame channel. The gun shot flawlessly with this modification of the vent liner. I still may lower the the charge amount, but the groups are fantastic if I do my part. Recoil is considerable to say the least, but still not a problem to me. Winchester primers are holding up the best of any primers I have used in the past. Federal being the worst.

axischem said:

Today I went out and shot my Knight 45 cal 1/20" with the 80 gr/v BH209, 500 grain PP Buffalo bullet. The breech plug I use is a Lehigh with the removable vent liner. To help with the primer concerns ( primer pressure signs and erosion ) I had the vent liner platinum lined leaving a .026 diameter flame channel. The gun shot flawlessly with this modification of the vent liner. I still may lower the the charge amount, but the groups are fantastic if I do my part. Recoil is considerable to say the least, but still not a problem to me. Winchester primers are holding up the best of any primers I have used in the past. Federal being the worst.

Click to expand...

Can you tell me more about a platinum lined vent liner? How does one do this, benefits, cost?

FYI. I have the same gun and love it.

Axischem,
When you state federal primer worst?
I know they are typically.297 long and Winchester.301 long. So is it just a leaking problem or do you find other issues with federal primers

Platinum has a much higher resistance to erosion vs alloy steel. A platinum lined vent liner should last many times the life of normal vent liner. Hoping for 500 + shots, but time will tell. I know that I was changing out vent liners about every 75 - 100 shots. The Winchester primers seem to solve my problem with blow by. I still see some evidence of a swelled primer, but nothing like in the past.
I would also think that a modern designed muzzleloader could handle 30,000 PSI without any problems. We are talking about modern steels vs iron barrels used in the past. The old Whitworth rifle used a 580 grain bullet in front of 90 grains of black powder without any great problems. Also a weaker constructed rifle compared to a modern muzzleloader.

I've shot some big lead (460's and 488's IIRC) in my converted Knight .45 cal 1:20 twist and my White M-98 in .451 cal 1:20 twist w/209 conversion with Blackhorn 209 back in 2008 or 2009, but I cannot remember how high I went on powder. Would probably be in the 70-80 grains by VOLUME, which would equate to 49-56 grains by WEIGHT. I tested some 460 grainers in my .45 cal Slufoot Super Smoker (smokeless capable) 1:20 twist back in 2011. I have also shot 440 grainers out of my .502 cal Knights and .502 cal NEF Huntsman 1:28 twist with 80 grains by VOLUME with excellent results. I did a lot of shooting, and testing different breech plugs and primers with Blackhorn 209 back in 2008 and 2009. I prefer my lead bullets sized .001" over the bore (lands) diameter, and use 1 or 2 Vegetable Fiber Gasket Wads, depending on what the load likes. I'm not recoil sensitive, and if you have ever shot a 3-1/2" 12 ga turkey load at a target more than once, you probably aren't either.

Someone mentioned time/pressure curves. Blackhorn 209 is not all that much different than Triple Se7en Loose Powder. Pellets are a whole nuther animal. Especially cracked/broken/crushed ones. Each horizontal line is another 5,000 psi.