What's really in a twist?

Modern Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Modern Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

SuperKirby

Well-Known Member
*
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
925
Reaction score
625
I know twist rates have been discussed ad nauseam. I understand the Greenhill twist formula, or at least understand how to apply it. But what's really in a twist rate? I mean, how much does it really matter, outside of extremes? For the average shooter, or even above average shooter that does more experimenting than most, how much is going outside of a 1-28 twist really going to affect anything?
It's very possible I'm a little dense, but given a 200 gr. bullet weight range, say between 200 and 400 grains, and running the velocity spreads that people hunt with, does anyone know do you really see any difference in a moderately faster or slower twist? I know there's a few with a 1-32 twist, a couple (maybe 1?) with a 1-24 twist. Does it really make a difference? Or is it more to say you have something outside of the box.

I apologize if the answer to this question is glaringly obvious to most. I just am not sure I see a few twists per inch making a difference.
 
There is several things about the twist rate that are commonly overlooked. If you played with a top as a child you will remember that it had to spin at a certain speed to stay up right and that if you could get it spinning fast enough it was hard to move.
There is a 20% [roughly] more stabile area to ward the fast side than the slow side , you change the spin of a bullet when you change the velocity.
The fact that it spins in say a 1-28 inches does not mean much compared to the fact that at 2000 FPS your bullet is spinning 71.4286 times a second.
I have noticed that some people on here seem to ignore the fact that a change in velocity can cross the line between stable and unstable.
For instance a change to 2400 FPS gives 85.7143 RPS which will stabilize a longer bullet as in the 215 grain CF.
Remembering that the difference between stable and unstable at the low end of RPS is pretty sharp on the high end it is possible to over stabilize to the point of getting a wobble and that immediately affects stabilization.
Years ago some of us figured out that a 1-24 would shoot everything that was available to us but we have not had much luck getting anyone else to recognize that fact.
I hope this helps some.
 
Lee 9 said:
..........
Years ago some of us figured out that a 1-24 would shoot everything that was available to us but we have not had much luck getting anyone else to recognize that fact.
I hope this helps some.

The place to get that information out, is at Friendship. Lots of people have said that the manufacturers give us what they want us to have, not what we want. I think that the only manufacturer that is actually listening is Knight. Ultimate uses a 1:24 twist and Remington followed it with their Remington Ultimate and 1:24.
 
SuperKirby
Twist is really just what it takes to stabilize a bullet. Throw a baseball with spin vs a knuckleball, or a football which has a long center axis inwhich it rotates vs throwing one without any spin - like you stated you understand the extremes in twist/projectile, like RB vs 500gr.
IMO, most big rifle makers today are just making stuff (making $) to sell and not to worried much about real accurate shooting. They only offer 1 twist in a given caliber and let the shooter figure out the rest (load). And really, for most all ML hunters who shoot/hunt 150yds +/- they all seem to be able to accomplish that adequately.
When I met Knight 2 yrs ago and learned they offered a 45 1:30, 50 1:28 & 52 1:26 - my immediate reaction to them was they are going the wrong way! The smaller the bore should have the faster twist.. Their response was they are trying to target a large range of projectiles with their given twist - while I agreed, I think todays hunter/shooter should have a few choices in any given bore diameter (45 & 50 cal since they seem to be the most popular). But, this also presents a problem with the makers who offer bullets as now they will have to offer a larger verity. i.e. more inventory = more investment..
To answer you question in your 2nd paragraph- lee9 is correct. I also think unless you go to extreme in DISTANCE, we probably can't tell much hunting MOA difference in twist from 50 1:28 vs 1:24.
You're last sentence is correct, but the difference is what each individual wants to achieve.
Good luck with your load development.

Just saw Encore50a post and I agree.
 
Here's kind of where I'm going with this.
I have a 20" long, 1-14 twist .45 barrel. I was hesitant to get this initially due to the very fast twist rate, but eventually gave in as it was built for a smokeless and I figured I could get the speeds up to help. Since deciding that at least for the time being, smokeless just isn't doing it for me, I've started looking at going back to a .50, but not sure I really want to go back to a 1-28. Not saying it's not adequate, just that I can't decide if what I have is better if that makes sense? I'm slightly worried that the slower speeds of the 1-14 will be more detrimental than the "comprimise" twist of 1-28.
Again, I'm not sure how much any of that really makes sense?
 
Ia the 45 smokeless not working for you because of 1-14 twist or another reason?
 
caliber, bullet and speed all play into twist rate. smaller calibers cal take more twist, on avg. I am a .32 nut, and have several in twists from 1-30, to 1-48. Twist and load charge (speed) even play a big part in roundball accuracy. although the bigger calibers seem to want a slower twist for roundball, the smaller calibers do better with a fast twist. Or are at least less finicky for charge speed. I am working with a 14 twist .36 cal right now that does great in the 1400-1500 speed range so far. and likes a heavy long bullet for the fast twist.
 
Kirby, a 1-28 50cal will often shoot the majority of 452-458 bullets fine. It begins to "lag" when you get over 300gr. Then it may need more speed to stabilize the longer or heavier bullets. Your 1-14 didn't need MORE speed. Faster twists need less speed to stabilize a bullet.

My personal preference for 50cal is 1-24 but my Douglas 1-32 is a fantastic shooter with bullets from 225gr to 275gr. I shoot them a far amount faster than your typical BH209 speeds.
 
I was debating sending the 45 down the road for fear the twist wouldn't be compatible with bh299 our other subs. Instead i think i will shoot everything i can out of it and see what happens. Might as well, right? I'll start with the basic 200 gr. SSTs and XTPs and go from there.
 
I cant believe you have not tried BH209 in that barrel already. It wont hurt a thing and its the least expensive option at this point.
 
My thought was more along the line of if it's not going to work I would rather work on finding a replacement for this fall now then to mess with trying to find something to work, find out it won't, then end up scrambling to find something to hunt.
But you're right, I should have tried it out already.
 
Consider trying the a few of the heavy Precision Rifle 40cals in the Harvester smooth or Crushirb sabot. IIRC they offer a 40cal 240gr, maybe a 250gr and a 260gr. They don't need a ton of speed to expand and the fast twist should easily stabilize them at moderate speeds.

I would start semi low at around 80gr with that twist and go up 10gr until accuracy suffers too much. Those 200gr SSTs may shoot better than you imagine with BH209.

Did you ever get a chance to see how well a resized .449 or .4495 fits your bore?
 
GM54-120 said:
Consider trying the a few of the heavy Precision Rifle 40cals in the Harvester smooth or Crushirb sabot. IIRC they offer a 40cal 240gr, maybe a 250gr and a 260gr. They don't need a ton of speed to expand and the fast twist should easily stabilize them at moderate speeds.

I would start semi low at around 80gr with that twist and go up 10gr until accuracy suffers too much. Those 200gr SSTs may shoot better than you imagine with BH209.

Did you ever get a chance to see how well a resized .449 or .4495 fits your bore?

I think for the remainder of this year, my first priority is going be getting dialed in with SSTs, then depending on time I'll start working outside of that. I found a mold that is almost an exact replica of the PR dead center in 270 gr and another of the PR QT that i believe is 250 gr. I plan to get a couple packs of the PR's and if they do well i may invest in a mould next year.

At this time i haven't tried any resized bullets. Also may think about an adjustable sizing die, I'm not sure yet. If i do that will be a next year venture as well. I'm hoping build a permanent shooting bench this weekend and that will about take up the rest of my funds.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top