Breech plug question

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ENCORE50A said:
This morning turned out really nice, so I hung a piece of cardboard that I shoot after removing a scope. The bench wasn't bad, just covered it with a couple towels.

I used the Permatex Nickel on clean threads and installed the plug to 65 inch pounds before shooting.

Instead of shooting the maximum charges I normally shoot, I dropped it back to 120grs and used 275gr Parker BE's.

I fired 19 rounds and the breech plug will not remove. I would have to put it in a barrel vice and heat it, then it would most likely break free. In hind site, I should have taped those threads before this trial. I have another plan in the works.....

For those who may say....... "OMG, that's not right"............ well understand that with this rifle, the plug wasn't designed to be removed.

OK this is going to sound really dumb... but when you get it out - see if you can tell WHERE on the plug it might have seized? And another dumb so do not hit me - when you say you cleaned the thread on the BP what about the threads in the breech?

"Not designed to be removed" or maybe "designed not to need to be removed" because obviously you can remove it.

Another dumb question... is the plug in the RU basically the same plug only hardened to a different factor? Would they possible interchange?
 
Not dumb questions at all. If one has never shot one of these rifles or a RU, then there's no way to know ;)

I cleaned out the threads in the barrel and also on the plug. It was clean in both areas when I added the Nickel and installed the plug.

The plug was never designed to be removed, because it wasn't necessary. Us older guys will remember when we NEVER removed breech plugs but, an entire generation has grown up with removable breech plugs, so that's the way we believe all should be.

Yes, the RU plug is nearly the same, but not interchangeable. Remington changed the thread pattern slightly and hardened the plug.
 
ENCORE50A said:
Not dumb questions at all. If one has never shot one of these rifles or a RU, then there's no way to know ;)

I cleaned out the threads in the barrel and also on the plug. It was clean in both areas when I added the Nickel and installed the plug.

The plug was never designed to be removed, because it wasn't necessary. Us older guys will remember when we NEVER removed breech plugs but, an entire generation has grown up with removable breech plugs, so that's the way we believe all should be.

Yes, the RU plug is nearly the same, but not interchangeable. Remington changed the thread pattern slightly and hardened the plug.

Well nutz!

OK - thanks for the info... but if the RU can shoot BH... well wait a minute...

You have just proved a good point to me... both powders T7 and BH can cause the plug to seize although I am not sure why BH does...

So now I know this is not going to make any sense but could it be a temperature/chemical reaction with the anti-seize you are using?
 
sabotloader said:
ENCORE50A said:
Not dumb questions at all. If one has never shot one of these rifles or a RU, then there's no way to know ;)

I cleaned out the threads in the barrel and also on the plug. It was clean in both areas when I added the Nickel and installed the plug.

The plug was never designed to be removed, because it wasn't necessary. Us older guys will remember when we NEVER removed breech plugs but, an entire generation has grown up with removable breech plugs, so that's the way we believe all should be.

Yes, the RU plug is nearly the same, but not interchangeable. Remington changed the thread pattern slightly and hardened the plug.

Well nutz!

OK - thanks for the info... but if the RU can shoot BH... well wait a minute...

You have just proved a good point to me... both powders T7 and BH can cause the plug to seize although I am not sure why BH does...

So now I know this is not going to make any sense but could it be a temperature/chemical reaction with the anti-seize you are using?

Another shooter has used the Nickel before and his results have been positive. I sent him a message and he just responded that, "I guess you proved me wrong?" The permatex Nickel is made for high pressure and high heat SS applications. Which makes me wonder, how the heck after just 19 rounds can that thing stick?????

Its not welded in there and should come out. I'll probably take it to the smith and have him put it in a barrel vice and maybe add a little heat. It should pop right out. Only tape could be tried next. I get nervous at times, because, DAMN that barrel is accurate at long range. Even if it doesn't come out, its no different than designed.
 
One a side note..............

Shooting just 120grs of T7..........

Well it was like the rifle only farted!

I can't believe how little recoil there is when shooting just 120grs of T7 vs shooting a 3-pellet load and a 300gr bullet.
 
ENCORE50A said:
sabotloader said:
ENCORE50A said:
Not dumb questions at all. If one has never shot one of these rifles or a RU, then there's no way to know ;)

I cleaned out the threads in the barrel and also on the plug. It was clean in both areas when I added the Nickel and installed the plug.

The plug was never designed to be removed, because it wasn't necessary. Us older guys will remember when we NEVER removed breech plugs but, an entire generation has grown up with removable breech plugs, so that's the way we believe all should be.

Yes, the RU plug is nearly the same, but not interchangeable. Remington changed the thread pattern slightly and hardened the plug.

Well nutz!

OK - thanks for the info... but if the RU can shoot BH... well wait a minute...

You have just proved a good point to me... both powders T7 and BH can cause the plug to seize although I am not sure why BH does...

So now I know this is not going to make any sense but could it be a temperature/chemical reaction with the anti-seize you are using?

Another shooter has used the Nickel before and his results have been positive. I sent him a message and he just responded that, "I guess you proved me wrong?" The permatex Nickel is made for high pressure and high heat SS applications. Which makes me wonder, how the heck after just 19 rounds can that thing stick?????

Its not welded in there and should come out. I'll probably take it to the smith and have him put it in a barrel vice and maybe add a little heat. It should pop right out. Only tape could be tried next. I get nervous at times, because, DAMN that barrel is accurate at long range. Even if it doesn't come out, its no different than designed.


High heat application yes - but I am betting the ignition temperature of T7 and especially BH is much higher than the 'high heat' rating of the anti-seize...

So I assuming you are talking about the current condition of the plug???

OK so next question - when the plug is going in how tight is it? Is there any play in the threads - will it wiggle a little bit??? I am wondering IF there is enough room for tape?

See I am thinking for the lack of a better term you are BAKING the anti-seize in place...

Willing to try an experiment? Clean the plug and breech threads in fact use a liquid action cleaner or something that will insure no residual material in the threads.

Put the plug back in bare dry and torqued to spec. Then go shoot BH in it at 5 and 10 shots crack the plug and re-tighten. If all goes well crack again at an additional 10 shots. I would really be curious as to what might happen.

I really do not want you to stick it but there has to be a reason...

Or maybe you have already done this...
 
The current position of the plug after shooting is, its stuck. I couldn't budge it using a ratchet and with pretty good force, well above 80ip. I mean that darn thing is in there.

I believe there's room for tape. If I can get the smith to remove that plug, that's going to be the next trial. It may take me some time to get to the smith and get the plug removed. If I do..... I've got just ABSOLUTE head space right now, I don't want anything to happen to that plug.

If I can get the plug taped, I'm still going to try T7 first and if it works, then try BH.
 
The extremely fine thread per inch on that plug would definitely lead to seizing much quicker and i bet it's a high percentage thread which is probably why they don't recommend removing much.
Most breech are 18 tpi and helps reduce seizing and around70% thread
I believe Hankins uses24 tpi and high percentage thread and he doesn't recommend removing it much or using tape.
 
bestill said:
The extremely fine thread per inch on that plug would definitely lead to seizing much quicker and i bet it's a high percentage thread which is probably why they don't recommend removing much.
Most breech are 18 tpi and helps reduce seizing and around70% thread
I believe Hankins uses24 tpi and high percentage thread and he doesn't recommend removing it much or using tape.

Most Jeff's rifles shoot smokeless, which is most likely the reason it doesn't need to be removed from his rifles.

I'm going to pull the trigger off and try the hot water. If it doesn't want to come out using that, I'll just leave it installed. I don't want to pony up for a different barrel or damage this BP.
 
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Those two plugs are the ones used in my rifles. The one on the right showed us yesterday, that it worked when installed, using 30 inch pound of torque. After burning Blackhorn, it was also removed using 30 inch pound of torque. Note, nothing was used on the threads such as tape, or anti-seize grease. My assumption is the one on the left would work the same. The one on the right also worked when installed with 38 inch pound of torque, and my assumption the plug on the left would do the same. Another assumption is that either plug will work, no matter the installation torque i.e. 0 inch pound to n inch pound.

Another assumption we can make is that either plug will work in any OEM TC Omega anywhere in the world. Right or wrong???

Both of these plugs began life as OEM. Both have been remodeled. The one uses shotgun primers, the other uses large rifle magnum primers carried by PR adapters. The one using shotgun primers has a vent liner installed because the primers are so very very erosive. The one using rifle primers has had the flash hole enlarged to 0.034", that is where it has stayed for about 1000 shots, and i assume it will never get any larger if another 1000 shots or more are fired. Both of these plugs utilize a metric o-ring to ensure a perfect seal at the nose of the primer/adapter. Neither plug seals at the nose very well, but that doesn't seem to matter, because neither plug allows blow back around them. Both plugs work flawlessly at temperatures around zero degrees F.
 
Encore:
It looks to my from the photos, that the Ultimate breech plug made of 2 parts, then assembled as 1, then into the rifle? That might be why they don't want people removing them?
 
52Bore said:
Encore:
It looks to my from the photos, that the Ultimate breech plug made of 2 parts, then assembled as 1, then into the rifle? That might be why they don't want people removing them?

Good eye :wink:

Yes both the RU and UF breech plugs are a 2 part plug. I can't remember the type of weld that puts them together, but its some kind of special weld I've never heard of. The weld will not break but, the nipple certainly will.

I just finished a short ago, trying something else. I tore it down, removed the trigger assembly, then headed to the other building. I put the barrel lug into the vice, then heated up the barrel, not the plug. Then I tried removing the plug and it wouldn't budge.
So I have to consider exactly what I want to do next and if its even possible. I DO NOT want to screw up this breech plug. This is the best head spaced plug one could have and I don't want to mess it up. So I'll talk with the smith before trying anything else.
 
Put a primer in your gun and stand it up. Saturate the bore with hoppes or whatever bore cleaning solutions you like. Leave it sit over night, Tomorrow morning that plug will come out. :wink:
 
Here is my take on this. I have never torqued my plugs. Before finding this site I used grease and it sucked. Very messy and a pain to clean. I now use tape and its purpose is a release agent. Unless we go to a tapered thread like pipe thread a standard pointed thread will not seal. My dad is a machinist and tells me that anything above 80% thread engagement in not meant to be removed. We could possibly try a square thread that might seal but it doubt full. How a bout installing and oring in the face of the plug that would seal on the barrel? Another idea would be to use a copper washer epoxied to the nose of the plug. Most of these ideas will increase production costs which will raise the end price.
 
This has been one of the most interesting and thought provoking threads I've read in a while and for that I say, Thanks ENCORE50A and all of MML.

If I may put another related thought out there for your response: if you had a clean sheet of paper, what kind of breech plug would you design? Something like Hankins? Redemption/Striker? I keep coming back to the question of why do we need to remove the bp at all? I have found over the years that I can clean one of my traditional rifles much faster (not that speed is important to anyone but my wife) than any of the modern rifles I own or owned. I've never found myself wishing, "boy I wish this bp came out"; even after loading a projectile with no powder. I see some real positives with the RU design. What do you all think?

edit - maybe I should have started a new thread........ :think:

This post has been added to a completely new thread - I you have comments about this please add them to this thread


http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28272
 
I also found this thread quite interesting, some thought provoking questions/ideas.
 
JStanley said:
This has been one of the most interesting and thought provoking threads I've read in a while and for that I say, Thanks ENCORE50A and all of MML.

If I may put another related thought out there for your response: if you had a clean sheet of paper, what kind of breech plug would you design? Something like Hankins? Redemption/Striker? I keep coming back to the question of why do we need to remove the bp at all? I have found over the years that I can clean one of my traditional rifles much faster (not that speed is important to anyone but my wife) than any of the modern rifles I own or owned. I've never found myself wishing, "boy I wish this bp came out"; even after loading a projectile with no powder. I see some real positives with the RU design. What do you all think?

edit - maybe I should have started a new thread........ :think:

I say start the new thread :wink:

I'd much rather read and/or discuss things like this, than to read and/or discuss the same topics over and over.
Now, I believe there's a reason Ken Johnston doesn't want the breech plugs removed and I'm betting its that he doesn't want someone to screw up the threads in the barrel. THAT would be costly for the owner. I don't believe for a minute that Ken thinks that all people will screw one up, just those who may not be paying attention or less versed in muzzleloading. If one stops and thinks about it, removable breech plugs are only a generation old. We never removed them back in the day. And honestly, not being able to remove one isn't the end of the world, never was before.
The RU and UF rifles can provide you with no less than....... violent recoil..... shooting full charges and 300gr bullets. I would never let someone shoot my rifle without a lot of discussion about recoil and that if they wanted that bad to shoot it, he/she accepts that fact that they may end up with a Tasco Tattoo. It may be because of the amount of recoil that these plugs shouldn't removed and it may be intentional to lock them up.

I've decided that I'm just going to leave well enough alone. I have way to good a barrel that's more accurate than I'll be able to shoot it most days. It also has perfect head space. Now another 8" of wet heavy snow may prevent some shoot'n for a few days... ;)
 
The T/C Strike primer adapter is the ticket. No threads to clean, and it's bore size. I still gotta test it with 777 but even so there's no threads to stick the adapter. Just put your rod down the barrel and pop it out. But, I only think this design is for break opens so far. And yes, it's a rear sealing plug.
 
I've never checked the torque, but I'm a muzzleloader newbie that's just learning all the tricks of the trade. Which is why I'm reading this thread. :) Check this YouTube video from Knight at about 5:00 for my tightening technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0D3iLJNKag . I don't know what that torque comes out to, but it's not much.
 
I remember reading somewhere about someone that was putting a super thin coating of permatex gasket maker on the very end of their BP. They said it worked to "seal" it. Can't remember what gun (I'm thinking it was a TC) or how long ago it was, or where it was. Pretty sure it wasn't here. Food for thought.
 

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