What has happened?

Recent post made me think of where this topic turned, just last winter - what has happened to following the manufactures recommendations.



Postby halloflin » Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:29 pm

OK...Let me weigh in here. I have learned a lot in this thread that I didn't know and the chart showing cost is excellent and a great tool. But 52bore, put yourself in my shoes for a minute. I think that all of us realize that you were presenting us this chart to show cost per shot and that is what you have done. Frankly I have come close to locking this thread two times because of the personal comments and derogatory remarks but once I posted about this it calmed down so I let it ride.

As the owner of this site one of my major concerns is safety for the complete novice and someone, that might not even join the forum, looking at the very first post, which is your chart, and assuming, without actually reading the warnings on the Blackhorn site regarding their recommendation to not exceed 84grains by weight, might conclude that they can use, by volume, 85/90/95/100, etc. You guys are seasoned, experienced ML enthusiast and know your guns limitations. But I would not want to read about someone getting seriously hurt NOR be liable for misread information.

So...I respectfully ask that you edit your very first post with a BOLD statement just above the charts that this information is strictly for Cost Per Shot analysis and not to be misunderstood for recommended load by volume measurements (I can do it for you if you like but wanted to appeal to you first).

Thanks for understanding and for supplying some excellent information!

Hal
“When a hunter is in a treestand with moral values and with the proper hunting ethics and richer for the experience, that hunter is 20 feet closer to God.” Fred Bear

Good question...

People like to push the limits. But that is human nature and not just here with ML's, but in ANYTHING.
Personally, I usually shoot well below the manufacturers recommendations.

I believe that with the advent of people performing Pressure Traces, supporting data and utilizing aftermarket barrels etc, BH209 has been thrust into the realm of smokeless. Due to it's composition and grain structure, people have pushed the limits (working up). I enjoy the data and it interests me. I think that it should probably be relegated to a locked forum for high post counts or people that have been here a long time, that understand what risks have been mitigated to attain the use of these charges. It should probably be outlined with a disclaimer for "enter into at your own risk", I would like to see the info but do not want someone to innocently assume that it is commonplace or could be okay without heeding the warnings of the manufacturer.

thats a wierd thing.. If you drive your car too fast and crash, you dont blame the gas..
When something like this comes up when I talk to my relatives in Norway, they just look at me funny and say thats only in America. We dont have so many lawyers here..

Grouse said:

52Bore,
Why don't you just come out and say what your problem is? Your just beating around the bush here and there. And your biggest concern seems to be BH 209 and you don't even use it.

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I believe that there may be an agenda, but he does bring up a valid point. My two cents based on reading posts put on here and inferring common themes. Not trying to inflame anything and no need to create division but with my proposition it could work for the best.

Grouse said:

52Bore,
Why don't you just come out and say what your problem is? Your just beating around the bush here and there. And your biggest concern seems to be BH 209 and you don't even use it.

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There is certainly an agenda to this madness.

Your post last year created some discussion among the Admins and we decided to post this at the top of each page:

CAUTION!!! - This is an open forum. The views and/or practices expressed herein are NOT APPROVED by ModernMuzzleloader.com and may be inaccurate and/or unsafe. Therefore, all information and advice provided by the participants of this forum should be considered with extreme caution and verified prior to implementation. For correct muzzleloading procedures please refer to your Owner’s Manual or contact the respective manufacturer.

I agree that posts "stray" towards the extreme form time to time but my main concern was that a rank beginner read the wrong thread and create a pipe bomb. Let's don't get carried away with posting on 52Bore's topic but have some calm discussion please.

I appreciate you, the mods and this forum. Thanks for appeasing us all.

It doesnt work in sidelocks...its basically a smokeless powder.. Thats not a real muzzleloader. its just segregation. JUST like the bowhunters, still arguing over compounds 40 years later, right up untill crossbows. That whole traditionalist stick in the butt attitude dont really rally the welcome wagon for the next generation. The biggest Rendezvous in the country gets a couple thousand? I was at a small local music festival this summer with well over 20 thousand. Im too old and ornery to even care about the drama.

If someone wants to fuss about being traditional, how trad is enough? Any body mixing pee, charcoal and whatever and not buying manufactured powder? It's an argument that will never end. It's an argument anti-gun and anti-hunters love to see. They can sit back and watch- gun owner vs gun owner, shooter vs shooter, hunter vs hunter. There is no right answer, if it is legal, let it be- don't like the station, turn the channel.

I see some have already responded

Fivebull and I have actually taken sides with BH209 at Friendship per NMLRA Rules & Regulation #1210. We've actually told NMLRA board members, R&P members and long time shooters (including past owner of GM) that it is allowed per regulations. If they had a problem, they need to take it up with the BATF or BOD or both. What's actually been happening in the past year or so has been around SAFETY on the Walter Cline Range with respect to in-lines.. AKA powder charges, loads, etc. vs manufactures recommendations. We are basically educating them the best we can, which they too can read what's recommended on the manufactures website - it's all out there.
The new President called me from my Savage accident with smokeless report that I emailed (and posted here) to my longtime friend Tom S. who was president when I started attending Friendship. The new President was the only one, who actually took what the Savage guy said for his word and gave an explainable answer - S.E.E. As new president, he also asked questions about the rumblings concerning BH209 that he had heard about. He actually said their were some that wanted it outlawed as did the NRA,NSSA, etc.. I asked him before they take any action, that Western should have a chance to defend themselves with respect to 120/84 maximum charge and ignition issues (this came up again today from a guy at work asking), I ask that he talk to them at the SHOT show - he arranged such a meeting and did. Unfortunately, he did not get the answers/clarification he were hopping. He called me Tuesday of this week telling me so since his return from the SHOT show. The organization is now in a delima - what do they do?
The decision has already been made that no one will be allowed to exceed 120/84 BH209 (which clearly states DO NOT exceed on the can) at the April In-line match. Now, the discussion for the BOD will be, what do they do in June and the September Nationals.

We can all agree, no one cares if we experiment beyond the recommendations on our own time and place. But, not that's not here or the NMLRA.
I've stated before and believe it: when it comes to SAFETY there is no compromise.

alphaburnt said:

If someone wants to fuss about being traditional, how trad is enough? Any body mixing pee, charcoal and whatever and not buying manufactured powder? It's an argument that will never end. It's an argument anti-gun and anti-hunters love to see. They can sit back and watch- gun owner vs gun owner, shooter vs shooter, hunter vs hunter. There is no right answer, if it is legal, let it be- don't like the station, turn the channel.

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I'm wondering when the traditionalists will move for a RealTree camo ban during muzzy season, and make everyone wear buckskin clothing and a coonskin hat. No GPS units, etc.

52bore,
Thanks for the explanation. Your reason for being concerned is safety and that's always the most important thing. So your saying all these people your talking to says a 500grn bullet shooting Swiss black powder is safer then me shooting 130grns of BH209 with a 300grn bullet for example? Am I understanding you correctly?

I put this site and the NMLRA in the same category when it comes to common sense and gun safety.
It's real easy. The rifle and powder manufacturers make it pretty clear as to what is safe - at least more than any of us.

52Bore said:

I put this site and the NMLRA in the same category when it comes to common sense and gun safety.
It's real easy. The rifle and powder manufacturers make it pretty clear as to what is safe - at least more than any of us.

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In the end I hope it's done fair. I'll leave it at that.

52bore,
So if im reading your post that 84 gr by weight of blackhorn will be maximum allowed charge for April inline match and possibly for the. Nationals?

Also will pyrodex and triple seven shooters be required to shoot powder manufacturers recommended loads also?

bestill said:

52bore,
So if im reading your post that 84 gr by weight will be maximum allowed charge for April inline match and possibly for the. Nationals?

Also will pyrodex and triple seven shooters be required to shoot powder manufacturers recommended loads also?

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It seems if one powder companies recommendations are to be adheared to then why would not Hodgdons limits need to be followed also????

What if I show up with an Ultimate rated for four 777 pellets???

When you think about all variables it should be the gun manufactured loads. If Knight says you can only shoot 120grns so be it. You build a custom gun and it's rated at X so be it. That's the fair way to run the competition to me.

Grouse said:

In the end I hope it's done fair. I'll leave it at that.

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I just hope in the end, they still allow in-lines. It's been a good start, but there has been a lot of variables for the organization to consider and have little to no experiences with and try to make rules to follow, so I'm sure they are staying on the side of caution.
One big concern, stems from the Savage accident was the bullet exiting only a few feet. Which has occurred and witnessed on the Walter Cline Range during the in-line matches which have only occurred the past 2 years. I too find this disturbing and have stated such. Not so much the bullet exiting, but if it doesn't and the immediate situation. They'd need to educate the shooters, range offices, etc. on what protocol to follow - sounds easy, but not.
It's all about safety.
Time will tell..
Sorry, to get things off track with the post.