Shimming the 209 Primer Pocket - updated 4/7/16

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First I wan't to thank every one on this forum for the wealth of information that's provided by this forum's member's. While not new to muzzle loading it never hurt's to listen to good advice. I had a problem with dirty primer's in my accura. After posting a question about it and several great response's I have cured it. The little rubber o ring was the answer. So I got a chance to shoot my accura today. Been trying to get the perfect load. After trying several proven load's from my T/C Triumph days I was completely frustrated, nothing was even close. :wall: So back to the drawing board, checking the threads on this site led me to the answer. I tried some Barnes T EZ 290 grain bullets with the supplied sabot's with a CCI magnum primer sitting on 100 grains of Blackhorn. Got a 3 inch group not bad but not good. Tried the same bullet same primer on 90 grains of Black Horn still not good. So I tried same bullet same primer and 110 grains of Black Horn. EUREKA :D Three holes all touching. Thinking it was a fluke I tried the same load again and got the same result's. I also tried the Hornady 250 grain Mono Flex bullets with the supplied sabot's using the same three powder measurement's and same primer's. The first thing i noticed was that the bullet's with the supplied red sabot's didn't seem to take as much effort with the ram rod to load as the Barnes had. The results showed on the target. Very enlarged group's. The best was the 90 grain load,4 inch group. So I tried the same powder load and primer and bullet and a Harvester Crushed Rib sabot. These real'y slid down the barrel with almost no effort on the ram rod and the grouping was terrible. :wall: I then tried some Harvester 300 grain Scorpion hollow point's using the same three powder increment's same primer and even worse result's. The group's looked like a shot gun pattern. :prayer: These even loaded easier than the Hornady's. So for my accura I found that it likes the thicker sabot's supplied with the Barnes T EZ. I'm going to order some MMP HPH 24 sabot's and then try the Hornady's and the Harvestor scorpion's again. Only because the price of the Barne's being around a $1.30 a round. Hope it take's a week for them to get here because my shoulder need's time to stop hurting :lol: Thank's again for all the advice from the forum member's.
 
I am wondering why the spring steel shims are suggested for the actual installation...I would imagine that there is a very good reason, but when I read the specs of the steels used in the various shims in the catalog, it would appear that stainless steel would be a better choice...perhaps the spring steel will stay in place better? I am just trying to choose the best product for the application... any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated..

Kindest regards,

themoose
 
Only my two cents :WOULDN'T IT BE MORE EASIER JUST TO BUY A NEW B.P.AND LESS COSTLY TO?
 
Bearman 49 said:
Only my two cents :WOULDN'T IT BE MORE EASIER JUST TO BUY A NEW B.P.AND LESS COSTLY TO?

How does a new OEM plug solve a loose headspace unless you just get lucky and the new one is a tad longer? You may get unlucky and its a tad shorter. Once you shim your plug, its set for your rifle and primer of choice.
 
I miss understood what was being done here,you did say you changed it from a #11 to a 209 right?
 
Bearman 49 said:
I miss understood what was being done here,you did say you changed it from a #11 to a 209 right?

No i dont believe i did. Ive never changed any rifle from percussion to 209.
 
The topic is just about shimming a primer pocket. Different plugs will need different OD shims. Such as the Savage plug is tighter than the Knight plug which is tighter than a CVA plug. (Just as a rough reference) You need the ID of your primer pocket to choose which shims will work for you.

Some people choose to use the oring method in CVAs which does not work very well in a Knight bolt action.
 
Sabotloader when I found out my knight bare primer breech plug for the mountaineer was shot out, I got my new spare one out of the closet. I started shimming it and when I put the .248 shims in, if I turned the breech plug primer end down the .248 shim would fall out. I could press them in using a primer and finger pressure. I tried a bunch of the shims and all had the same effect. Finally I used an anvil and a hammer and beat the hell out of the little shims, pure overkill. Then they stayed in, but I do believe a little steel pick could take them out of the primer pocket. Am I glad I sent my rifle to Bestill.
 
Re: Shimming the 209 Primer Pocket

WV Hunter said:
Does anyone have a handful of shims (and the sizing shims) they would be willing to sell and mail to me? I have one plug that needs shimmed a smidge, and another that I have not shot yet, so it could need shimmed as well. Really don't want to have to spend $25 to buy a bunch of shims when I likely only need a few. Be glad to pay you.

Thanks

PM me your address I have some .241 and .248 shims that I won't be needing anymore, they should be all you will need. Be sure to note in your post that you want the shims.
 
Ive been playing around with a screen shot feature in Firefox and since McMaster wont let you link it directly to the shims..

Here is a pic of the .241s...They have them in 316SS now too but WAY more $$$$ than the 18-8s
sbZtq29.png


Here is a pics of the .248s for final head spacing in Knights and some others. Rockwell C40 btw has about 3 times the tensile strength as B70
pk7p1k4.png
 
Is there anyone that would have a couple of shims available? I have one breech plug that I need to shim, and I don’t want to buy a pack of 20. I would be willing to pay for them. I know that Badger Industries sells 3 for ~7-8 bucks but that seems a little steep for me. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: Shimming the 209 Primer Pocket

I had the blowback problem with my CVA Accuras & someone in one of the forums suggested to use these O-Rings which I found really solved my problem. The O-Ring will last for 20/40 shots & you get 100 for $5. They work with different sizes primers.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#9262k611/=y73fh8

I have an H&R Sidekick using a Metrics, Unlimited breech plug. H&R made/sourced really good barrels for Sidekicks, but the "flagged primer carrier" system they used was abysmal. The MU plug uses O-rings. The system works perfectly, and lets me use Blackhorn 209. I swap the O-rings out after every range session. I keep spares on a piece of bead chain in my buttstock pouch in the field.

(https://oringsusa.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/26_118/products_id/118000698)

My question: Is anyone using O-rings in a T/C Encore? I'm wondering if anyone out there has experience with O-rings or any other approach that doesn't permanently alter the gun or breech plug. I have the old style Encore that requires a 1/2" socket to turn the plug in/out. Using the depth gauge end of a dial caliper, I can see I'll have 0.001-0.002" excess headspace, depending on what primer I use.
 
I read this post and bought a bag of O rings from McMaster Carr. I have two Encore 209x50’s, one is and old barrel and the other is a Endeavor barrel. O ring worked in the older barrel but it was hard to get the action closed. I could get the action closed in the Endeavor barrel. I was using CCI 209 and bought some Federal 209. No blow by using Federal 209 in the Endeavor barrel and no O ring!!!!
 
First I wan't to thank every one on this forum for the wealth of information that's provided by this forum's member's. While not new to muzzle loading it never hurt's to listen to good advice. I had a problem with dirty primer's in my accura. After posting a question about it and several great response's I have cured it. The little rubber o ring was the answer. So I got a chance to shoot my accura today. Been trying to get the perfect load. After trying several proven load's from my T/C Triumph days I was completely frustrated, nothing was even close. :wall: So back to the drawing board, checking the threads on this site led me to the answer. I tried some Barnes T EZ 290 grain bullets with the supplied sabot's with a CCI magnum primer sitting on 100 grains of Blackhorn. Got a 3 inch group not bad but not good. Tried the same bullet same primer on 90 grains of Black Horn still not good. So I tried same bullet same primer and 110 grains of Black Horn. EUREKA :D Three holes all touching. Thinking it was a fluke I tried the same load again and got the same result's. I also tried the Hornady 250 grain Mono Flex bullets with the supplied sabot's using the same three powder measurement's and same primer's. The first thing i noticed was that the bullet's with the supplied red sabot's didn't seem to take as much effort with the ram rod to load as the Barnes had. The results showed on the target. Very enlarged group's. The best was the 90 grain load,4 inch group. So I tried the same powder load and primer and bullet and a Harvester Crushed Rib sabot. These real'y slid down the barrel with almost no effort on the ram rod and the grouping was terrible. :wall: I then tried some Harvester 300 grain Scorpion hollow point's using the same three powder increment's same primer and even worse result's. The group's looked like a shot gun pattern. :prayer: These even loaded easier than the Hornady's. So for my accura I found that it likes the thicker sabot's supplied with the Barnes T EZ. I'm going to order some MMP HPH 24 sabot's and then try the Hornady's and the Harvestor scorpion's again. Only because the price of the Barne's being around a $1.30 a round. Hope it take's a week for them to get here because my shoulder need's time to stop hurting :lol: Thank's again for all the advice from the forum member's.

Hey IowaBoy, thanks for detailing your efforts. Shows what I discovered myself, that every rifle seems to shoot best with its own unique combination of powder/charge, sabot, bullet, & primer. I'll share my story just so you know how familiar yours sounds to me.

I have a "Franken-rifle" that I was ready to use for a tomato stake 7 years ago until I hit upon the magical recipe. Stainless H&R Sidekick with a Metrics, Unl. breech plug using an o-ring, Hornady 250 grain .452 SST-ML in a black Harvester Crush Rib sabot (tight enough in my bore that seating requires me to kinda throw my weight into it a bit), standard Win 209 primer & 110 grains BH209. I had tried Slick-Load & T/C & MMP sabots, 6 different bullets, Trip7/PyroRS/PyroP both loose & pellets as well as BH209 & Goex, 6 different primers, prayers, curses, seances, and rain dances all to no avail. The magic happened 3 weeks before Iowa EML season as I was ready to pack up off the range and settle for a 75-yard deer range, which had always been good enough for dusk hour cornfield does anyway.

What was going to be my last effort of 100 grains gave a 5" group, then I moved up to 120 grains and got 6.5", and was going to call it quits with 100 grains. Then just for gits & shiggles I tried splitting the difference at 110 grains: BINGO!!! Knew I was onto something when I got 3 consecutive holes touching at 200 yards; pulled the target in disbelief just to keep from ruining it with a flyer, then on a fresh target it turned right around & did the same with the next 3 shots! The 2 reserve sheriff deputies wringing in a .308 Savage 10FP Tactical on the next lane couldn't believe it since they had just been high-fiving each other over their 1.5" group with factory "match" ammo after 2 hours of trying.

I went home & bought about 500 of those sabots from Midway that night, 5 boxes of the SST-MLs & a 5 lb. jug of Blackhorn at Scheel's that weekend and I don't think I've been back to the muzzleloading aisle since - at least not for that rifle, which is the only thing I've used in Iowa whether hunting gun or ML seasons. I have 2 other muzzleloaders I play with now, but they're for range fun so far, not for meat. One of them (an Encore) has the same length of barrel, same 1:28" twist, but doesn't group as well with that same load recipe as it does with some of the others that failed in the Sidekick.
 
I read this post and bought a bag of O rings from McMaster Carr. I have two Encore 209x50’s, one is and old barrel and the other is a Endeavor barrel. O ring worked in the older barrel but it was hard to get the action closed. I could get the action closed in the Endeavor barrel. I was using CCI 209 and bought some Federal 209. No blow by using Federal 209 in the Endeavor barrel and no O ring!!!!

I read this post and bought a bag of O rings from McMaster Carr. I have two Encore 209x50’s, one is and old barrel and the other is a Endeavor barrel. O ring worked in the older barrel but it was hard to get the action closed. I could get the action closed in the Endeavor barrel. I was using CCI 209 and bought some Federal 209. No blow by using Federal 209 in the Endeavor barrel and no O ring!!!!

HH16818 What are the chances of getting you to send me one of those o rings to try in my Encore?
Thanks, Don
 
Is It My Understanding that the O-Ring is not a good choice for Disc Elite to make up for the space those using Shims are for?
I don't have the measuring skills or tools to test / measure and I dislike putting something in you cannot get out (shims) so bought a pack of O-Rings but now it appears these are not good for a bolt type ML like a Disc Elite.

Guess I need to filter through more Threads and find more info...as to this topic...
Just an Observation...on my part.
LFM
 
I tested some T7 (they vary a lot) primers for crush in my Disc Extreme Lehigh conversion. (Haven’t shot it yet) Started with .298 length primers-No crush. .302-No crush. What’s the wisdom using primers that vary that much? I can give these away and buy a different brand if there are any out there that are more consistent in length. Anyone know of a better choice? I will be using T7 FFFg. For a while. Thanks for any advice.
 
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