Help a frustrated Knight Ultra-lite owner?

Ok, I bought a new Ultra-Lite last year at the end of summer hoping to have a nice, accurate rifle for deer season. Ive never really been able to get the gun to shoot well, and my best group was probably 2.5 to 3" at 100 yards. I figured it was good enough for close range hunting and I'd try after season to tighten things up. It was brand new U-Lite, with a Leupold VX3 2 X 8 set in Weigand rings on Leupold bases. I had settled on 110 grains of Black horn and Hornady 250 grain SST bullets. I tried green smooth sabots and 240 grain XTPs but they would produce 4" to 5" groups at 100 yards.

Recently, I went back to square one and started with 90 grains og Black horn and the SST's and have gone up to 100 and now I'm lucky if I get a 3" group at 100. Also, it's become impossible to get a shot primer out of the gun without pulling the bolt and using a pocket knife to pry the primer out. A follow up shot on game would be impossible if it were needed. A little bit about myself, I have my own range, a very solid shooting bench, and I shoot off a Bald eagle front rest and rear bag. I shoot almost every day (one rifle or pistol depending on mood) even through the rifle. I'm confident this isn't me as I I shoot a lot and am very capable with all my rifles and handguns.

I'm wondering what to do here. Any advice from experienced muzzleloader shooters. My only other experience with Muzzleloaders has been my old TC which groups 3/4 to 1" at 100 yards shooting pyrodex and 240 grain XTP's. On my Knight I recently re-mounted my scope in new Warne rings and bases to rule out that possibility. I thought I read that Knight has an accuracy guarantee? Maybe I should send it back to Knight but i it cam back after a few weeks with a note saying it shoots fine I'd probably take it outside and wrap it around a tree! If anyone can think of something I should try I'd appreciate it.

If i was starting with a problem rifle i would make sure you don't have plastic buildup in rifling and clean it well.
Next make sure action is seating properly in stock and recoil lug. Next would make sure barrel is floated and not contacting forearm area of barrel channel.

My go to test load would be 100 gr by volume of blackhorn with federal209a primer and shim primer pocket for proper headspace.
Barnes290tez with supplied sabot if fit isn't good a snug get some mmp hth-12 sabots.

I recommend to clean between shots with hoppes9 one damp patch and then2 dry patches. And allow barrel to cool between shots.

Sorry to hear about your troubles. You could try some other sabot/bullet combinations too. Most of what you mention seems right on track.

Try the Harvester 'crush-rib' sabot, with the SST or another bullet. The Barnes or Hornady XTP are worth trying. There can be slight variations with primers on fut, maybe even a comparison chart around here.

I'd set a goal of trying to shave 1" off your current results, the average.

MJFlores said:

Ok, I bought a new Ultra-Lite last year at the end of summer hoping to have a nice, accurate rifle for deer season. Ive never really been able to get the gun to shoot well, and my best group was probably 2.5 to 3" at 100 yards. I figured it was good enough for close range hunting and I'd try after season to tighten things up. It was brand new U-Lite, with a Leupold VX3 2 X 8 set in Weigand rings on Leupold bases. I had settled on 110 grains of Black horn and Hornady 250 grain SST bullets. I tried green smooth sabots and 240 grain XTPs but they would produce 4" to 5" groups at 100 yards.

Recently, I went back to square one and started with 90 grains og Black horn and the SST's and have gone up to 100 and now I'm lucky if I get a 3" group at 100. Also, it's become impossible to get a shot primer out of the gun without pulling the bolt and using a pocket knife to pry the primer out. A follow up shot on game would be impossible if it were needed. A little bit about myself, I have my own range, a very solid shooting bench, and I shoot off a Bald eagle front rest and rear bag. I shoot almost every day (one rifle or pistol depending on mood) even through the rifle. I'm confident this isn't me as I I shoot a lot and am very capable with all my rifles and handguns.

Click to expand...

1. Which primer are you currently shooting?
2. Where is the primer sticking in the face of the bolt or the breech plug? I am guessing the face of the bolt.
3. If it is the face of the bolt have you tried re-cocking the rifle and pulling the trigger - that will re-set the primer back into the battery cup.
4. Have you cleaned the flash channel in the breech plug with a 5/32" hand turned drill



5. Part of your problem might be the primer. The breech plug is designed for the use of a Winchester W209 primer. Because of length it may fit the in the BP with a Slight crush which might stop your stuck primer problem. The is not real reason to use a Mag primer even when shooting BH. The Knight plug was designed for shooting BH with a regular primer.
6. The down side is the flash channel plugging with residue cause a build of gas pressure on the nose of the primer. Pushing the primer back out of the Battery Cup and back into the hammer hole in the face of the bolt.



I'm wondering what to do here. Any advice from experienced muzzleloader shooters. My only other experience with Muzzleloaders has been my old TC which groups 3/4 to 1" at 100 yards shooting pyrodex and 240 grain XTP's. On my Knight I recently re-mounted my scope in new Warne rings and bases to rule out that possibility. I thought I read that Knight has an accuracy guarantee? Maybe I should send it back to Knight but i it cam back after a few weeks with a note saying it shoots fine I'd probably take it outside and wrap it around a tree! If anyone can think of something I should try I'd appreciate it.[/quote]

Accuracy... I am not sure why you may be having the problems. Bestill mentioned a couple of possibilities that are worth checking. The thought about plastic fouling with the new polymer formulations that both Harvester and MMP are using now is somewhat rare but not impossible.

I would emphasize the grip on the bullet that the sabot has and the grip of the sabot to the bore are critical for accuracy. I would add that I have better luck with MMP sabots but I know for a fact that other prefer Harvester.

It really might be worth investing in some JB's Bore Paste and give your bore a good rub-down with the paste and a tight fitting patch.

I really hope you find some answers.

The SST 3 petal sabot is probably really loose. Its loaded OD is around .501 Im not sure which green sabot you tried but the Harvester green is pretty loose too for most Knight bores.

To answer some questions so far.
- For primers I've been using Winchester 209.
- Each time I clean the gun I make sure the breech plug is really clean. Once its dry I use a drill bit and turn with my fingers to clear all the built up residue and then blow it out with air.
- I'd be surprised if the bore was fouled. I soak it good with Ballistol and let it soak between running patches. Once they come clean I use a bronze brush and make 3 or 4 passes followed by patches soaked with Ballistol.
- The green sabots I tried were packaged by TC. I'm not sure what brand they really are but they're smooth and look like the red ones from Hornady only they're green. I feel like they're snug and take some effort to seat, but not terribly tight that it's a struggle.I shoot 8...maybe 10 shots before going back to the house and cleaning everything. I'm paying particular attention with shots 2 through 6 looking for some sort of group before the barrel gets dirty or heats up but so far I havent been able to get an acceptable group.

thanks everyone.

I would try 300 sst good luck .

where did you get the sabots? what bullet did they come with? Try the same thing with a harvester crush rib.

T/C uses MMP sabots and the MMP green is probably plenty snug BUT that means the red SST sabot must be too loose. Its MUCH smaller loaded OD.

Assuming the MMP green feels about right, i would use a MMP HPH-12 sabot for the .452 SSTs. All the Harvesters but one are .504 loaded OD or less. The only one that is larger is over .507. The MMP Orange with a .458 bullet will also be close to the MMP green in size.

The Ultralite is a very light gun. By design you cannot hold the barrel when shooting. (The Disc Elites are the same way) You need to make sure your hand is on the forearm and not touching the barrel. I would also try the Harvester short black sabots with the 250 SST. I think those two things will eliminate your accuracy issues for sure. One more thing, keep your BH209 loads between 110 and 120grns by volume with the 250 SST.

Once your accuracy issues are resolved i would send that gun and have it head spaced properly. Bestil on this forum is doing that and it will eliminate 95% of sticking primers. This is a normal problem with most bolt action production Muzzleloaders. And theres a very good chance your flash hole is warn out on that Knight plug. That would also cause accuracy issues with BH209.

MJFlores said:

To answer some questions so far.
- For primers I've been using Winchester 209.

Click to expand...

You might look through this thread - hopefully it will help with the primer problem.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28388

- Each time I clean the gun I make sure the breech plug is really clean. Once its dry I use a drill bit and turn with my fingers to clear all the built up residue and then blow it out with air.
- I'd be surprised if the bore was fouled. I soak it good with Ballistol and let it soak between running patches. Once they come clean I use a bronze brush and make 3 or 4 passes followed by patches soaked with Ballistol.
- The green sabots I tried were packaged by TC. I'm not sure what brand they really are but they're smooth and look like the red ones from Hornady only they're green. I feel like they're snug and take some effort to seat, but not terribly tight that it's a struggle.I shoot 8...maybe 10 shots before going back to the house and cleaning everything. I'm paying particular attention with shots 2 through 6 looking for some sort of group before the barrel gets dirty or heats up but so far I havent been able to get an acceptable group.

thanks everyone.

Click to expand...

Grouse said:

Once your accuracy issues are resolved i would send that gun and have it head spaced properly. Bestil on this forum is doing that and it will eliminate 95% of sticking primers. This is a normal problem with most bolt action production Muzzleloaders. And theres a very good chance your flash hole is warn out on that Knight plug. That would also cause accuracy issues with BH209.

Click to expand...

+1

This is basically a permanent resolution and the only way to get a top end 17-4 SS Mountaineer type breach plug. Considering the cost of the Ultra Light this is peanuts and well worth letting Bestill do the upgrade.

My DISC Original has minor sticking but mostly with a Fed209A. Win209s rarely stick with very hot loads so my headspace is barely good enough. Im getting one of his plugs so Fed209As will work but just loose enough so a Win209 will still fit too. The plug is worth every penny if you compare it to other bushing plugs that are using 416 SS instead. 17-4 is a bit harder to machine IIRC and Lehigh does them beautifully.

Will the headspace fix correct my accuracy issues? My primary concern is the bad accuracy I'm getting. Secondary, the primer sticking sucks but I could live with it if the gun would shoot a decent group. Right now I have neither.

What are the chances that a crush rib harvester sabot will make all the difference? Or change to a 300 grain bullet? I've been shooting 90 to 100 grains of BH by volume, should I try to stick between 100 and 120 for accuracy?

Mike

I would definitely try a cheap 300gr bullet such as the .452 300gr XTP.

I would NOT try the Crushrib sabot. If you want to try the Harvester get the Smooth Black (for upto 300gr bullets). They have 2 smooth blacks. I strongly prefer the shorter of the 2.

Have them send you a sample of these. https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/ ... ess-bullet

SKU: H5045SB

I have some 240 grain .44 cal XTP's. They wont shoot for anything in those green "TC" sabots. I'll try to pickup some 300's today. With the 240's which sabot would typically work the best? Is there an all around load that just seems to shoot fairly well most Knights? I know things vary from gun to gun but is there something I could try that will at least group 2.5 inches at 100? I did an overall inspection last night...the stock has a bedding block and the guard screw is tight, not over tight but what I had tighten my bolt action rifles at. The crown and chamber look fine, and the bore is clean and shiny. The barrel is floating and I can easily slide a piece of paper between the forend and barrel all the way to the scope before I feel any pressure at all. The scope is remounted, bases and rings are torqued down to Warne's recommended 25 inch pounds.

I have never had much luck getting ,429s to shoot as well as .452 or .458s. The Harvester Smooth Green is one of the more popular 50x44 sabots though. Something to consider, if a 240gr is tight in the MMP green sabots, a 300gr might be tighter because it has a longer bearing surface. You have FAR more sabot options in .452

Harvester offers free samples of sabots and if you really need some MMP samples there are a few people here than can probably help with that too.

Seems odd that you are having as much trouble getting it to shoot as you are. :huh?: :huh?:
The majority of the Knights I have owned (and currently own) shoot pretty well with most loads, and very well with several once I figure them out. I've honestly never had one that I couldn't get to shoot well. Most will shoot MOA if I do my part. Most recently for me was a .50 Disc Elite last fall... I used 100gr Blackhorn, W209 primer, and 250gr Bloodline w/crush rib. First time out I got her dialed in right about 1". Got lucky I guess, normally I have to tweak a little over a few trips to get that.

In .50, if I was starting, I'd probably use a 100gr powder and a .452 speer or xtp, with a black crush rib sabot. SST's are known to fly well most of the time, you could try them. A few of my .50 Mk-85's I use .429 speer deep curls with green crush ribs, they shoot very well.

It may just be that you have a lemon... a call to Knight may be in order.

I'm going to hit a few local stores and see what my options are for heavier bullets and different sabots. If I dont find anything good I'll order some sabots from harvester (hopefully I can just buy a pack of them today). I'm sure I'll be able to find some 300 grain .452 XTP's. I also have call into Knight customer service as of Friday to see if they can provide some insight I'm really hoping I can find something today in the way of a heavier bullet and different sabot and that it unlocks some some accuracy potential in this rifle!

ALl of my Knight .50's shoot MOA or better with Scorpion PT golds in 300 grain. (most do as well with 300 XTP) Harvester crush rib, or MMP HPH-24 is usually my go to sabots. I buy both bullets and sabots separate and in bulk.

Do you put the Bald Eagle Rest so that the end of the forearm is rested on it, could be the sling swivel post hits the rest bag? Also move the rest back toward the middle of the forend and as Grouse mentioned the light rifles recoil differently so that they jump around more than CF. Hang on to them more. I hold onto the forend of my light weights, and I use a Hart Rest. I have not shot my UL much yet but that should change very soon. My MK-95s are light weights and throw them all over if you don't hang on to them too.