Fishy Bullet drop results

Ok , I couldn't find a similar topic so I hope I'm putting this in the right place... What is happening, every weekend with consistent results is that my lighter bullets are dropping faster than my heavier bullets, has this happened to anyone else? I just don't understand why.. I'm shooting a Remington UML. The bullets are the 195 gr. PR bullet with the duplex sabot and the 275 gr. Parker BE with there supplied sabots. The Powder is BH209 112gr. by weight. Both bullets shoot great but with a 100 yd. "0" on each bullet the 195 PR drops a consistent 14" at 200 yds. and the 275 Parker only drops 9" consistently. MV is averaging right at 2300 fps for the PR and 2278 for the Parker. Can anyone explain this. It just doesn't work this way in centerfires so I'm really perplexed by this. There is some variable I'm not aware of. Could it just be the better BC or Newtons law of inertia, It really caught me off guard as I never expected those results.... Thanks for any help guys... Oh yeah, I know the gun is recommended to use T7 but the drop of both bullets is even worse when I tested that.

Few thoughts
High temps and sabots is never good.
High humidity will greatly reduce b.c.
112 gr by weight is very high charge and in consistent velocity i would think100 gr would shoot just as fast and more consistent

In general, lighter bullets start out very fast and shoot flat to a certain range and then lose speed and energy quickly, thus dropping faster at longer ranges. Heavier bullets, although starting out slower but with much more energy due to the added mass, keeps the bullet from slowing down as fast as a light bullet would (assuming similar shape). Also, the heavier bullet is apt to be more aerodynamic (higher BC), which further helps the heavier bullet maintain energy and speed.

Run your data through a ballistics program.

Two good answers so far. It stands to reason, if both bullets start out at basically same mv the heaver bullet will maintain velocity better than the lighter one, thus less drop. HC.

bestill said:

.................112 gr by weight is very high charge and in consistent velocity i would think100 gr would shoot just as fast and more consistent

Click to expand...

Yes..........you are probably experiencing irregular/poor ignition when shooting the 195g bullets, or their BC is a way way lower than what PR bullet say it is.

In my Omega, using 200g bullet, 2300 fps is achieved with about 84g weight of Blackhorn. This when using W209 primers, not rifle primers.

Cecils's BC claims may be a bit optimistic. Very little difference in reported MV, so given even approximate BCs, the heavier bullet will shoot much flatter. Could also be incomplete combustion from low bullet weight combined with the loose fitting Deadcenter sabots. I really like some of the heavier Precision Rifle Deadcenter bullets 275-300 grain.

ENCORE50A said:

In general, lighter bullets start out very fast and shoot flat to a certain range and then lose speed and energy quickly, thus dropping faster at longer ranges. Heavier bullets, although starting out slower but with much more energy due to the added mass, keeps the bullet from slowing down as fast as a light bullet would (assuming similar shape). Also, the heavier bullet is apt to be more aerodynamic (higher BC), which further helps the heavier bullet maintain energy and speed.

Run your data through a ballistics program.

Click to expand...

I agree with this. Heavier bullet has more momentum for longer ranges. BH also seems to have a more efficient burn with heavier bullets.

Your heavy bullet recoils more so the lift from the recoil gives a higher muzzle position at the time the bullet exits which makes it appear to be shooting flatter.

Lee 9 said:

Your heavy bullet recoils more so the lift from the recoil gives a higher muzzle position at the time the bullet exits which makes it appear to be shooting flatter.

Click to expand...

I'm using a 100 yard 0. The drop I'm referring to is from 100 to 200 yards. Both bullets are in the same place at 100 so any "muzzle lift" wouldn't factor in.

chyhunting.....

I'd suggest that you'll be much better off shooting bullets of heavier weight, such as 275gr or 300gr, especially at longer ranges. If you start shooting beyond 200, say to 300 and even 400, the heavier bullet will be more consistent and have much more energy.

bestill gave you some good advice about backing down your BH charge to at least to 100grs. You should seat the bullet fairly hard on BH with a decent tightly fitting sabot. As you pointed out, the rifle's breech plug is designed to shoot pellets and its face is completely flat, where most breech plugs designed to shoot BH, are concaved.

ENCORE50A said:

chyhunting.....

I'd suggest that you'll be much better off shooting bullets of heavier weight, such as 275gr or 300gr, especially at longer ranges. If you start shooting beyond 200, say to 300 and even 400, the heavier bullet will be more consistent and have much more energy.

bestill gave you some good advice about backing down your BH charge to at least to 100grs. You should seat the bullet fairly hard on BH with a decent tightly fitting sabot. As you pointed out, the rifle's breech plug is designed to shoot pellets and its face is completely flat, where most breech plugs designed to shoot BH, are concaved.

Click to expand...

Yes I shoot every Sunday, I shoot out to 450 yds.. I've gotten some pretty good groups with the PR bullets at distance but the Parkers are definitely,as you said, more consistent and much more wind forgiving. What would be the reason for backing down the powder charge? I have found that 112 gives me the best MV with the best accuracy. I feel that it's burning all the powder because the barrel is still fairly clean after firing and it responds to the amount I load. What I mean is if I load less it shoots slower. If I load more it shoots faster. Western Powders has concluded but not published their research and their max load recommendation for the Remington UML. It is 160 by volume. You have to call them to get the information. At 160 it pushes the 275 Parkers in the mid 2500's but accuracy erodes just a bit and it kicks like a mule. Even to me , and I'm 6'3" at 280lbs.

ronlaughlin said:

.......... In my Omega, using 200g bullet, 2300 fps is achieved with about 84g weight of Blackhorn. This when using W209 primers, not rifle primers.

Click to expand...

To me it doesn't make sense that you are getting a good burn using 112g powder. The PR bullet has a better BC than the Parker bullet, which means it will fly better. If it has a higher MV than the Parker, it will fly further with less drop.

It is not true that heavy bullets fly better than light bullets in all cases. A light bullet with a higher BC than a heavier bullet, will fly better than the heavy bullet. It is the BC of the bullet that determines how it flies, not it's weight. A .357 bullet will fly better than a .45 bullet, if it has a higher BC, even if it is lighter.

You are correct........something seems fishy.

chyhunting said:

ENCORE50A said:

chyhunting.....

I'd suggest that you'll be much better off shooting bullets of heavier weight, such as 275gr or 300gr, especially at longer ranges. If you start shooting beyond 200, say to 300 and even 400, the heavier bullet will be more consistent and have much more energy.

bestill gave you some good advice about backing down your BH charge to at least to 100grs. You should seat the bullet fairly hard on BH with a decent tightly fitting sabot. As you pointed out, the rifle's breech plug is designed to shoot pellets and its face is completely flat, where most breech plugs designed to shoot BH, are concaved.

Click to expand...

Yes I shoot every Sunday, I shoot out to 450 yds.. I've gotten some pretty good groups with the PR bullets at distance but the Parkers are definitely,as you said, more consistent and much more wind forgiving. What would be the reason for backing down the powder charge? I have found that 112 gives me the best MV with the best accuracy. I feel that it's burning all the powder because the barrel is still fairly clean after firing and it responds to the amount I load. What I mean is if I load less it shoots slower. If I load more it shoots faster. Western Powders has concluded but not published their research and their max load recommendation for the Remington UML. It is 160 by volume. You have to call them to get the information. At 160 it pushes the 275 Parkers in the mid 2500's but accuracy erodes just a bit and it kicks like a mule. Even to me , and I'm 6'3" at 280lbs.

Click to expand...

You're lucky to get good groups at 450 with Parker BE's. I can't get them shooting even good past 200yds, neither the 275's or 300's and Lord knows I've tried many times.

In general, shooting a maximum charge doesn't "always" give the best accuracy or consistency for the tightest long range groups. There comes a point where the heaviest of charges to gain MV becomes a waste. Also, shooting heavy charges of BH, in general, will require swabbing of the barrel to maintain accuracy. I believe bestill will agree also. We've both been down that road.
I understand Western's position on BH in both the RU and UF rifles. I've had the documentation for a bit. But, even Western will tell you that at a point, any gain stops.
If its shooting to your expectations with your current load and most of all its safe, then there's the potential to continue. Muzzle velocity can be argued till the cows come home. There are guys reading this right now, that can shoot as accurately shooting 80 or 90grs of Swiss BP at 1,200fps, as others can shooting BPS at 2,400fps.
I found 93grs weighed BH (134grs V) shot much more accurate and gave more consistent long range groups, however that was also using 300gr bullets. I no longer shoot BH from my Ultimate. Don't mistake a high muzzle velocities to accuracy, tight groups and total confidence. I wasn't really going to and didn't comment in my first response about MV, but bestill is giving you great information/suggestion, I agree.

Keep shoot'n........ :wink:

chyhunting:
Some good answers to your initial question.
This is from a similar topic a while back.
It might help you understand whats going on with bullet drop.

ronlaughlin said:

ronlaughlin said:

.......... In my Omega, using 200g bullet, 2300 fps is achieved with about 84g weight of Blackhorn. This when using W209 primers, not rifle primers.

Click to expand...

To me it doesn't make sense that you are getting a good burn using 112g powder. The PR bullet has a better BC than the Parker bullet, which means it will fly better. If it has a higher MV than the Parker, it will fly further with less drop.

It is not true that heavy bullets fly better than light bullets in all cases. A light bullet with a higher BC than a heavier bullet, will fly better than the heavy bullet. It is the BC of the bullet that determines how it flies, not it's weight. A .357 bullet will fly better than a .45 bullet, if it has a higher BC, even if it is lighter.

You are correct........something seems fishy.

Click to expand...

I don't have the data but, the OP states that, "MV is averaging right at 2300 fps for the PR and 2278 for the Parker." So his muzzle velocity appears to remain consistent and if that's the case, he's getting a good burn. There's also little difference (22fps) in velocity. Also, with both bullets MV remaining consistent, he's evidently seating his bullets pretty consistent. He's weighing out his charges, so that remains consistent. Evidently, but not knowing for fact, his sabots are identical for each specific bullet. Also we're talking mil-seconds between the bullets exiting the barrel and an 80gr difference in bullet weight. IMO, a 5" difference in POA from 100 to 200yds isn't caused from the recoil difference.

So as someone already mentioned, the BC of one bullet may be exaggerated over the other. Lighter bullets may have a faster MV, but in general will lose speed faster over distance.

Well, i don't believe he is getting a good burn. What i have tried to indicate is, my Omega shoots a 200g bullet as fast using 84g of powder as chyhunting gets shooting a 195g bullet using 112g of powder. This to me, indicates he is getting the same energy to the bullet, as i do, but he is using a way more powder. This indicates poor efficiency.

The fact there is very little difference in the speeds (22fps) of the bullets weighing 195g, and 275g, also indicates there is something amiss.

It may be the rifle primers just aren't enough to get the 112g of Blackhorn to burn efficiently. It may very well be shotgun primers aren't up to burning that much powder either, but i have never tried it, so i don't know.

Bestill suggested it first, then it was followed up. Its recommended he back off the 112gr charge and bestill recommended 100grs. I suggested my best luck was with 93grs. Western themselves state there's only so much propellant that will burn efficiently. It very well may not be burning properly with that light a bullet, yet his data remains consistent with the charge. He also mentioned duplexing sabots, which very well could be a contributing factor. He's also using a rifle primer that although hotter, it has less pressure than a 209. He's shooting a flat faced breech plug designed to ignite pellets, where designated BH breech plugs are concave. He's also shooting a 26" barrel.

I would suggest....... back the charge down, say to 95grs W. Then shoot both bullets with the same sabots again. "The Test"
Having personally shot BH from this breech plug system, there IS a difference in ignition between T7M and BH, BH being slower.

RW started the craze of using BH in a rifle with a breech plug designed to shoot pellets. Sadly.

98g weighed Blackhorn in my Omega, drives a 200g bullet at around 2400 fps, when ignited by a W209 primer. Not so very efficient it is.

Let me see if I can address all the replies I've read. I swab and cool between every shot, to me there's no other way, my first shot from the stand won't be from a dirty hot gun, I strive for consistency, without it ,the data means nothing. Yes ,at some point, there's no reason to go up in powder. That's why I shoot 112gr. I still can shoot MOA or better at that charge and it gives me the most energy I can get down range without sacrificing accuracy (which is the most important). For every 3 gr. I go up or down with the charge, the muzzle velocity equally and incrementally moves up or down. At 85 gr. MV is down around 2100 and accuracy is about the same so I prefer the faster load. With Triple7 pellets the velocities are slower even though the gun is designed for it. I can usually figure out the cause and effect or whatever the situation is but I just have a hard time wrapping my brain around a faster, slimmer, lighter .357 bullet dropping more than a fatter , heavier.45 bullet.....I think that's one of my faults, I like things to make sense, and I just can't make this make sense to myself! I've got some good ideas /reasons out of yalls replies so far and I really appreciate everyone's input.

140gr of BH209 by volume in my Pacnor 45 is getting over 2400fps with a 200gr bullet. I find it hard to believe my Savage type 209 plug is that much more efficient even in a 45cal barrel.