CCI 209 or 209M

I have shot many different loads in my Thompson Center Bone Collecter. Many hours at the range trying different bullets, powders and powder volumes. This is what works well in my gun. 110 gr. Blackhorn 209 powder, 250gr. Barnes Expander T-EZ sabot and CCI 209 primer. Now, here is my question. I see Blackhorn powder recommends using CCI 209M primer. Now if I switch to the 209M primer will I have to sight in my scope again? With my current above mentioned load I enjoy this : 1" high at 50 yards, 2 1/2" high at 100 yards, dead on at 150 yards, and 3" low at 200 yards. I'll take that set up all day long. I don't really want to switch primers, I've never had any problem with a regular CCI primer and Blackhorn powder. But the 209M is recommended.

I'm assuming you mean BLACKHORN powder? If your current primer is working properly and you're achieving the groups you're capable of or confident with, remain with it. Sounds like its working well for you.

Yes, I meant Blackhorn 209.

I would recommend switching to magnum primer just as powder manufacturers recommend.

You wont see a poi change but when extreme cold weather rolls in the magnum primer is a positive for ignition

Scott14814 said:

I have shot many different loads in my Thompson Center Bone Collecter. Many hours at the range trying different bullets, powders and powder volumes. This is what works well in my gun. 110 gr. Blackhorn 209 powder, 250gr. Barnes Expander T-EZ sabot and CCI 209 primer. Now, here is my question. I see Blackhorn powder recommends using CCI 209M primer. Now if I switch to the 209M primer will I have to sight in my scope again? With my current above mentioned load I enjoy this : 1" high at 50 yards, 2 1/2" high at 100 yards, dead on at 150 yards, and 3" low at 200 yards. I'll take that set up all day long. I don't really want to switch primers, I've never had any problem with a regular CCI primer and Blackhorn powder. But the 209M is recommended.

Click to expand...

A couple of thoughts... when you say CCI 209 you are meaning the standard CCI 209 primer? Or is it a CCI 209A?

Second when BH 209 first came out there were a lot of rifles out there that were equipped with breech plugs that would not provide reliable ignition with a NORMAL primer. The Western Powder moved to suggesting the Magnum 209 primers and went to the hottest 209 primer on the market the Federal 209M. Their sole concern was to make the powder go boom! Another concern that you a TC owner needs to know is that Western also wants the powder to rest right near the output end of the flash hole... more or less to mimic a cartridge since BH is truly a smokeless powder.

Today if your rifle is equipped with the correct BP the Magnum primer is not necessary. Now the new TC's with the very long breech plug and small flash hole would/could be a problem with regular primers and BH. But, if your rifle and BP are new enough you may have a BP that has been modified by TC to shoot BH. Since you might be using a regular CCI 209 standard primer and not having any problems you probably have a BH plug built by TC.

Another assumption on my part.... I assuming you are cleaning the "flash channel" in the BP. Having a clear flash channel to the flash hole really helps your cause.

This is a target that I shot through a chrono back in 2010. It really wasn't shot for accuracy but for velocities with different primers. The shot were one right another with no cooling... You can see there really is not a significant difference in velocities from one primer to another. Also this was shot with a Lehigh breech plug and vent liner installed in a Knight rifle.



So from this I would say you are probably not going to see much difference if you switch primers - but it is always wise to check to see if it effect barrel harmonics.

Yes, I am using the regular 209 primer. I really appreciate all the replays and help. My concern was I spent a lot of range time and finally got a combination I really like then I see Blackhorn recommens another primer than I was using. I bought my T/C bone collector I believe in 2010. I've shot several deer with in in our late muzzleloading season in Western NY, in some pretty cold temps. And I've always used the regular CCI 209. But I am going to Ohio this coming January for a late muzzleloading season deer hunt. I could see some extreme temperatures there. I believe the hotter primer of the 209M may give me a little more insurance of no misfire. Even though that has never happened before. Also I seen on Blackhorns Website it said to not clean after every shot. Well, while sighting in, I want a clean barrel every shot. I know it's probably not necessary with BH but I believe it's important. And also I clean the breech plug after shooting for the day always. I see by your chronograph that the 209 and 209M does not have much differentsis in velocities. But if I go to the 209M, I'll have go to the range and make sure, if I don't, I won't feel confident.

I would stay with what you got unless you have time to make it to the range and test a few with the Magnum CCI and see how they perform on paper before your season starts or hunting trip.

If you feel it will give you peace of mind and more confidence during colder weather go with the Magnum CCI but sight your rifle in. If you don't have time stay with the regular CCI they'll work fine too.

If you switch please report your findings with primer change.
Also clean bore hunting. Absolutely!!!

Nost likely the only change you will see is increased primer residue and possibly sticking primers.

Good idea to go hotter, when traveling to the Great Lakes region. Your humidity levels outdoors will rise and the hotter primer will help, more than hurt.

When I lived in Colorado I used the cci 209m magnum primer in -10 temps and that's cold no misfires. but here in Louisiana in the summer and it gets hot I us just the cci209 std primer for the temps. in hot weather you need less primer to light off bh209 in hot weather. but winter time comes it magnum primer time. and for poi change there is just a little change.

Started using BH209 about 8 yrs ago.Always used standard cci primers.A few years back went to buy more primers and all I could find was cci mag primers.
I have used both primers with the same bullet and BH209 charge out of my Encore .There was no change in POI.

When Blackhorn became available, i purchased a bottle, then another, then another, then another, then a case. In the years since i have purchased several five pound jugs of Blackhorn. Over those years, i have been using one primer, the W209. Never, ever, have i experienced a delay, or a misfire when using an Omega, with the standard factory breech plug. In an Optima, using the Blackhorn QRBP, i have never experienced a delay, or a misfire. These rifles, i have fired when the temperature was as high as 90 degrees, and as low as - 13 degrees.

It is my opinion that magnum primers are not required when one is using a properly designed breech plug. Having never experienced a delay, nor a misfire over years of shooting, is what formed my opinion.

It is a myth that magnum primers are required to ignite Blackhorn powder.

Also, i believe that folks that write it can't hurt to use magnum primers, may be incorrect. Magnum primers may erode the flash hole faster than standard shotgun primers, thus using them may be a detriment.

I also have an Omega and original plugs - current T/C plugs......etc.
Depends where we live Ron and how often we shoot our ML in hunting season and how we address the fouled bores that accompany ML owners that fire their weapon twice a day, in places like the humid Great Lakes region.

What works in the Dakotas doesn't always work in Michigan. Being somewhat new with Blackhorn, I found out last winter that it's fouled powder in the bore is a magnet for drawing moisture. Took me until summer 2016 to figure out why I encountered a couple of hangfires using it, after never firing more than just 2-3 shots (after morning hunt & after evening hunt).

Those that hunt and use Blackhorn in the manner I do, you want the hottest primer possible...... or else a more thorough cleaning during lunchtime - then again during dinner. All I was doing was fast-swab of the bore (and/or) dry swab (and/or) no swab of the bore.

It didn't matter which method really. The end-result was the hangfires I encountered - both with the T/C Omega and Knight Vision. I need a tool to pry those fired/spent Federal 209As off sometimes. But that's OK. This winter I'm hunting GoexFFF-only, for real black fires the easiest of any powders (several) I've used in the past.

Giving Blackhorn 209 the entire winter off..... :|

Neither humidity, nor a fouled bore, have anything to do with the ignition of Blackhorn. Using magnum primers accelerates the wear of your breech plug.

ronlaughlin said:

................. Using magnum primers accelerates the wear of your breech plug.

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Yeah but, when 95% or greater of inline shooters shoot less than a package of bullets each year, their breech plugs shooting magnum primers will last them most likely as long as they own the rifle.

It gets -10 to -20(without wind chill) here in Ohio during the MZ season so I would not only switch to the CCI209M, but I would:
1.Use appropriate sized drill bit to clean carbon from your flash channel.
2. Make sure the "flash hole"(aka touch hole) is at least .031" (#68 drill bit). I've found .033(#66 bit) to be optimum and replace BP/vent when a .035(#65) will pass thru. I bought each bit numbered #60-70(.040-.028) and a "pin vise" so I can tell when my BP/Vents need replaced as well as clean them perfectly by hand and this has been about the best $15-20 investment ever. I've found some BP's start as tight as .028 and had hang fires with BH209 no matter what primer until .031 and shot best even in sub zero temps with .033. So I started drilling them out to .033 for my BH209 guns years ago and have never had an issue of a gun not going off no matter how cold it was each year.
3. Make sure bullet and sabot are seated "hard" against load to ensure maximum initial pressure and therefore help ignition even more.
Good luck, and you better bring your heated insoles because it gets "stupid" cold and windy here..

Thanks CL, I will dress warm, I'm from south of Buffalo, NY, so I know what cold is, haha. I did purchase some CCI 209 M primers, and plan to shot them in the next day or two, I'll let you all know if there is any POI differences from the regular CCI 209. I'm going with an outfitter in Ohio, Southern Ohio Outfitters, they have an outstanding reputation and very much looking forward to the hunt.

ronlaughlin said:

Neither humidity, nor a fouled bore, have anything to do with the ignition of Blackhorn. Using magnum primers accelerates the wear of your breech plug.

Click to expand...

I don't care about the vent or flash hole when hunting I just want the gun to go off for that shoot of a life time :shock: . and now we have the new bushing plugs witch or working good for me and sealing the primers grant and no stick primers and will put them in all my new knight guns.

cljohnson24 said:

.............. Make sure the "flash hole"(aka touch hole) is at least .031" (#68 drill bit). I've found .033(#66 bit) to be optimum and replace BP/vent when a .035(#65) will pass thru................

Click to expand...

Gee, That sure seems limiting. Using a breech plug only when the flash hole is 0.033" to 0.035". That plug will be good for about 75 shots, then it will need replacing.

Back when Blackhorn was first available for purchase i used it for hunting in my X7. Never had an issue, and never knew there were ignition issues. Do recall hunting one day when it was a way below zero. The rifle/powder ignited perfectly when i took a shot.

When i had an urge to try a break action, i ended up with an Accura. When it was cold, i noticed delays ever once in a while. Still, i took it hunting. While hunting it misfired. After that i studied up on breech plugs, and read several posts on these forums about ignition issues with CVA rifles. After the misfire, i set out to improve the old CVA breech plug. What was done, is a vent liner was utilized to make the CVA hex head plug look like the Omega plug. It worked good. However we weren't satisfied, and tested, tested, and tested the modified plug to make sure it was 100% reliable.

To be sure the modified plug would be reliable in cold cold weather, i waited for forecasts of sub-zero weather, and when they came, i loaded the rifle, and put it out in the truck over night. In the morning i took the rifle, and wrapped it in my coats, and put it in the back. After i drove up to where i could shoot, i took the rifle, and shot it. It was so cold i had to be careful when touching the barrel, because my fingers wanted to get stuck. Our modified plug never failed to instantaneously ignite Blackhorn, using W209 primer. This was done, maybe 25, or 35 times over a couple winters. The same thing was done using the X7 with a standard factory plug. Neither of the rifles had a delay, after spending the night in way sub-zero weather. Both rifles had breech plugs with flash holes of 0.028". The only primer used was the W209 standard shotgun primer.

Back then is when i learned beyond a doubt, when one has the properly designed breech plug, standard shotgun primers are plenty hot, and 0.028" flash holes work to ignite Blackhorn. Then came the idea to make breech plugs from grade 8 bolts. These home made plugs also had flash holes of 0.028", and they also reliably ignited Blackhorn, after being left out over night, in sub-zero weather, using the W209 primer.

All these plugs worked good in all weather, and they worked good when the flash hole was 0.028" up until it grew to about 0.037", which takes about 400 shots, or there abouts.

To me, what matters when hunting is, the rifle shoots accurately without delay. In my experience the 0.028" flash hole using W209 primer accomplishes just exactly that, iff the breech plug is right. The CVA Blackhorn QRBP does not need modifying to be reliable, nor does the standard Omega plug. This i know, after shooting thousands of shots, verifying.

All of my guns have ventliners( a couple thanks to you) . It makes my shots pretty consistent using the same primers and only a .002 range. For $3.50 it's a great deal.