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03mossy

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A buddy of mine and I want to try Swiss powder from everything we hear good about it. Both will be shooting Knight Mountaineer .45's.

FFG or FFFG?

Which primers? Federas 209A, CCI, Winchester, or does it need or more mild primer like a 777.

Is swabbing needed between shots?

What works best with Swiss for cleaning?
 
I usually like 3f, some guns will prefer 2f. (and some even 1.5f) I find I get the typical seven style crud ring with real black and 209 primers, but the usual swabbing required by black pretty much nulls that easily. So, A milder primer may be better, I use W209 for everything.
Ive been using Sagebrush citrus cleaner with black and subs, and like it better than anything yet. I have had guys tell me any typical store brand citrus home cleanser works as well, so when my spray bottle empties, i'll probably try a refill of the generic big lot store stuff.

On a side note, my last few range days were slam fire, with real black. Its been a while since ive swabbed for every shot. I did it for years, but now with the Blackhorn guns, and clean breeches, I understand better the cries of no more swabbing for me. :D ( and as much time spent cleaning the scope as the gun. Quick release rings- the only way to go) LOL everything has pros, and cons.
 
I shoot 3f Swiss exclusively in both of my Black Diamond XR's. One is a 50, the other a Super 45( 1-20 twist). I max my charges in the 50 at 90 grains and 70 grains in the 45.
Swiss is the most powerful and cleanest burning black powder I have used. That being said, swabbing is mandatory between shots. I swab with rubbing alcohol as it evaporates very quickly. Used to use musket caps in the 50, until they got tough to find and ridiculously expensive. 11's work perfectly in both rifles.
The power of Swiss may be because their granulation is slightly finer than ours. Black is a surface burner, the finer the powder, the faster it burns. I guess that Swiss is about a half f finer than ours. 2 is 2 1/2, 3 is 3 1/2f. Could be wrong. The velocities I get are very consistent. I'm doing something wrong if my shot to shot variations get much above 10 fps.
No special breech plugs or special primers needed. No crud ring and practically infinite storage life are nice too.
 
03mossy said:
A buddy of mine and I want to try Swiss powder from everything we hear good about it. Both will be shooting Knight Mountaineer .45's.
FFG or FFFG?
Which primers? Federas 209A, CCI, Winchester, or does it need or more mild primer like a 777.
Is swabbing needed between shots?
What works best with Swiss for cleaning?

I LR competition I see more use of 2F, there are also a few that use 1.5 & 3F, probably doesn't matter (just start out about 15-20% less with 3F).
I tested many primers a few years back and found Rem Kleanbore 209 gave me the best groups at 100 and have used them since.
I use spit, swab between shots: one damp, one dry.

What twist is your 45?
What projectile are you planning to use?
 
I'm interested and will add a couple other questions.
First, if given the choice between 209s and #11's using Swiss, which would you choose and why? Is a 209 necessary? Too much? Is there an advantage of one vs vs the other when igniting Swiss?

When shooting lead conicals it's my understanding you can generally avoid swabbing unless they're real tight. Is this not the case with Swiss?
 
I would buy the FF. It's by-far the best seller and it's grain size resembles that of FFF Goex.

Two Swiss shooters I ran across with 50-cals at the range a few years ago were using 1-1/2F
 
52Bore said:
03mossy said:
A buddy of mine and I want to try Swiss powder from everything we hear good about it. Both will be shooting Knight Mountaineer .45's.
FFG or FFFG?
Which primers? Federas 209A, CCI, Winchester, or does it need or more mild primer like a 777.
Is swabbing needed between shots?
What works best with Swiss for cleaning?

I LR competition I see more use of 2F, there are also a few that use 1.5 & 3F, probably doesn't matter (just start out about 15-20% less with 3F).
I tested many primers a few years back and found Rem Kleanbore 209 gave me the best groups at 100 and have used them since.
I use spit, swab between shots: one damp, one dry.

What twist is your 45?
What projectile are you planning to use?

1-20" twist
I plan to plink with all sort of bullets but am hoping to hunt with 460 no excuse
 
I've consistently gotten best accuracy with the least powerful cap/primer consistent with 100% reliability.
I converted my daughter's Traditions Tracker to musket cap, from 209, and got a 30% improvement in group size with the same load. I believe, as some others do, that for most uses the 209 is too powerful. By this I mean before the charge fully ignites, the blast moves the load column up bore. This can cause inconsistencies in burn rate etc.
I got better accuracy from my Omega when I went to Variflame adapters using small pistol primers as opposed to 209's.
I dry balled a Lee 320 grain 50 caliber REAL in my Black Diamond XR. 3 musket caps popped it out of the muzzle.
You dont need 209's for black powder, unless the design of your rifle requires them. In that case, I would get Variflames and a brick of small pistol primers.
 
For what it is worth.
I have only shot one granulation of Swiss Black Powder - 2F.
However I have compared Swiss 2F with these other brands of Black powder in 2F - Goex, Schutzen, and Old Enysford.
Swiss is noticeably finer than the others.

With a good clear flame path you should have no trouble getting good ignition with #11 caps and black powder, so it would seem that the least powerful 209 primer would give good ignition.
Let us know how it goes. :D
 
SuperKirby said:
I'm interested and will add a couple other questions.
First, if given the choice between 209s and #11's using Swiss, which would you choose and why? Is a 209 necessary? Too much? Is there an advantage of one vs vs the other when igniting Swiss?
When shooting lead conicals it's my understanding you can generally avoid swabbing unless they're real tight. Is this not the case with Swiss?

I agree with others that a #11 is all you need to ignite BP effectively. I would like to test that theory, but I've yet to converted a known good shooting 209 to #11. For me, Rem Kleanbores gave me the best groups with Swiss.
I prefer to mostly shoot PP and I swab/clean. Swiss has less residue than any other BP, but it also feels the 'hardest' left in the bore - it feels dry to me. Compared to O.E, Elephant, KIK, etc.. (haven't tired Goex since they moved) - these leave a soft/damp fouling that can facilitate some reloads. I use these in my BPCR sporting and double rifles and not Swiss for that reason.. You'll may have to try for yourself- you can give us feedback..
 
Swiss klinker can be harder than others, tis true, but it seems dependent on humidity. Swiss is definitely less hydroscopic than other black powders. A side benefit of this is it seem less corrosive over the same period of time. All else being equal.
 

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