Gonna try something

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Banerbird

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Everyone I know that's ML hunted has preached higher speeds or bigger bullets or whatever... What I've noticed is that most of us do like the performance of handgun bullets, but we never think of pushing them at their designed velocities, only faster because their designed velozity is considered "undersized" for deer sized game. (Note that I'm looking at typical thick or heavy timber shooting, so 100yds would be max distance)

However... No one I know would ever doubt the effectiveness of a 44 mag or 480 Ruger on a deer, so here goes...

I've estimated that 60gr 777 w/ 210gr 44 cal Gold Dot will give me similar velocities to most factory 44 mag ammo. I've also estimated that 60/70gr BH209 w/ 275gr 475 cal Deep Curl will give me similar velocities to a 480 Ruger.

So here's what I'm going to try...

1) Take my TC Black Diamond and load the 60gr 777 w/ 210gr GD and shoot at 50 and 100 yds (100yd zero) and play with a calculator to see what my velocity is. If the bullet is stable (not keyholed) and the velocity is what I think it should be (~1400 fps), then why wouldn't it be OK up to 100 yards on deer?

2) Take either my TC Encore or LRC Redemption and load the 60/70gr BH209 w/ 275gr DC and do the same thing.

I know the 275gr 475 cal shoot OK out of my Redemption. I tried a few at 50 yds last year using the same powder charge as my normal load (270gr 44 cal DC w/ 110gr BH209) and the point of impact was within 1 inch of each other. BUT the 270gr load out of the Redemption is awesome on paper and deer. At 150 yd zero, it's only about 8" drop at 200 yards (about 4" group). Energy and velocity is more than enough at 300, but I don't have a range that long to see how accurate it is. Based on the Federal calculator, if I remember it correctly, the estimated velocity with that load is 2050-2100 fps. So I'm not really wanting to change that combo.

So if all works well, I'll have a 44 mag performance (light load in the Black Diamond), 480 Ruger performance (big and slow out of the Encore), and just under 444 Marlin performance (current Redemption load).

Any thoughts?
 
Id rather be over gunned instead of undergunned. Just in case.

Sent from my ME301T using Tapatalk
 
herschel conyers said:
Id rather be over gunned instead of undergunned. Just in case.

Sent from my ME301T using Tapatalk

I don't see how a 44 mag or 480 Ruger is undergunned at all up to 100 yards. There's plenty of velocity and energy at that distance if you know what you're doing (but maybe that's the key?).

Just curious.. what do you mean by "just in case"? If you're talking about opportunities at long range shooting, most places where I hunt, 100 yards is a LONG shot. MAYBE 5% of the time you could sneak in a 125 yard, but I've only done that once in 30 years. I do hunt one property where there are some fields that are huntable, but I would carry the Redemption with the 110gr BH209 and 270gr DC for that.

I would be curious to know why people are so scared of lighter (but still very effective) loads. Very few (if any) people hunt with a ML using a load with the same ballistics as the 44 mag or 480 Ruger factory ammo.

You could look at it this way... Take a traditional patch and ball... 175gr ball with 80gr powder is VERY effective within 100 yards if placed in the boiler room.
 
Not that your plan wouldn't hang a deer in the buckpole, but why hobble yourself?

Say that deer is standing at 100 yards, would you rather a 44 mag handgun at 1200 FPS or a scoped M-L at 2100+ FPS? Just cuz the 44 mag can bag a deer, no sense dialing back a M-L to handgun performance. The issue of a pistol bullet pushed beyond design velocities can be real, something to think about.

I often use a 200 grain XTP in my 45 cal, checked at just over 2200 FPS with my crony. I still usually get a passthru with a soft tissue shot.

Your reduced velocity load may work just fine, but why not stick with more traditional velocities that provide more margin? For a youth or casual range shooting, may be a better time to use them.
 
Most 240 grain .429 bullets are excellent performers on game. The hard to get Speer Deep Curl is probably the best. Hornady's XTP is a close second.

I guess I'm in the middle on this one. I don't go too light, but have never seen the need to load for the highest velocity I can get because mid range loads seem to give me the best accuracy. This chart shows my hunting load with 240 grain bullets. It's accurate and totally effective out to 150 yards.

 
IME- 200 XTP < 2000 impact velocity will get pass through except bones other than ribs. @2200fps they will only exit on lung shots and at 2600fps they vaporize inside aftter about 6" of penetration. They all 3 kill but the ones that do not exit, drop them in their tracks.

This is the same thing I've seen with all XTP's the faster you push them the less likely they exit, but the quicker the deer hits the dirt. You only need about 4" of penetration to reach vitals and unless you are pushing a really light for caliber bullet at extreme speeds, they will hold together long enough to do that before they blow up inside.

Some believe that a bullet needs to exit for good blood trail...IMHO that is a different kind of killing and although effective, to me resembles a bow shot results where it's damaged on way through and the organ that's hit ceases to function or it's blood pressure drops and it passes out etc. Lung hits are lung hits...they run out of oxygen and go to sleep anywhere from 20-500 yds depending upon how much air it had in lungs and it's will to run..
Hard cast and other "penetration" non expanding type bullets fit this bill. Copper bullets expand but also cut with sharp edges and as such have 50% of the frontal area to slow them down before they exit with whatever energy they didn't deposit on the target.

Soft pistol bullets expand rapidly and deposit ALL of their energy on the target (if they don't exit). Regardless of what organs they hit, They kill with trauma like a Bruce Lee 5 finger Death Punch. The animal drops right there...

Now we have frangible mono-metal hybrids, which still assure penetration yet cut in different directions as they travel laterally through the animal. A 3-D impact if you will.

All work equally well, but some are better fit for your style of hunting. Where I hunt, a deer can disappear in a cattail swamp in less than 100 yds, so I want something that drops them right there. For guys out west shooting hundreds of yards across open area, they care less if animal runs 100yds before collapsing. Everyone has a different definition of what works best for them. For me though, I like pistol bullets at about 2200-2500 fps because they don't move after being shot. A gut shot deer with a 2500 fps XTP leaves with a softball hole in both sides and only makes it about 50 yds.
Many say..what if you hit shoulders/bones....to them I say what if you don't??What if you hit Neck, Liver, Lungs, or god forbid the Paunch(which nobody ever claims)...I'll take that Pistol bullet that "blows up" in ALL situations on a deer. Obviously when you start talking about tougher animals such as Elk etc..again out west..I probably would go with a monolithic bullet.
 
muskrat30 said:
Say that deer is standing at 100 yards, would you rather a 44 mag handgun at 1200 FPS or a scoped M-L at 2100+ FPS? Just cuz the 44 mag can bag a deer, no sense dialing back a M-L to handgun performance. The issue of a pistol bullet pushed beyond design velocities can be real, something to think about.

I often use a 200 grain XTP in my 45 cal, checked at just over 2200 FPS with my crony. I still usually get a passthru with a soft tissue shot.

I'm not going to be carrying a 44 mag handgun. It will be a scoped ML shooting 44 mag and 480 Ruger velocities if the bullet is stabilized at 100 yards.

Now I understand where everyone is coming from, but at 100 yards is 2000 fps with a slug designed for handgun velocities really necessary? Being undergunned on this is like saying you have a 30-30 and 300 mag sitting next to each other. You hunt in thick timber where 150 yards is your longest effective shot. Do you only take the 300 mag because the 30-30 is undergunned compared to the 300 mag?

Me and the group of people I hunt with have used handguns (41 mag and 44 mag), shotguns, ML, and centerfire (calibers anywhere between 240 Weatherby to 300 Mag) and they all work (99+% of the shots over the years have been 150 yards or less with the centerfire and probably 80 yards or less with the others). But my point is for the 100 yard effective ranges... Is pushing a ML to centerfire velocities really necessary? With necessary being the key. We all love the higher velocites, but are they NEEDED.

IMO, unless your a novice (no offense intended to anyone) and are not confident in your abilities, then yes maybe it is. It does make marginal shots more effective.

I've used a 240gr XTP and pushed it with 130 gr 777. I've lost a big buck which was hit in the shoulders and the other one I got I bit into lead eating a loin chop. Now that shot was mid lung and did not touch the shoulder. So I don't use that load anymore for those reasons.

But anyone that thinks a 44 mag and 480 Ruger are undergunned at 100 yards or less, really needs to do their homework or practice shot placement more. I'll admit that I've only taken one deer with a handgun and missed more. I took a nice 10 point (field dressed 180 lbs) with a S&W 8" 41 mag using Remington Express 210 grain soft point. He was at 75 yards quartering to me. I aimed for the front edge of the facing shoulder and he didn't go anywhere. No exit, but I was an idiot and didn't look for the slug.... My dad took a large doe (150 lbs) at 80 yards with a TC Contender 8" 44 mag using 240gr Deep Curls. She fell over immediately. Center lungs pass through... My friend took a large doe (140 lbs) at 50 yards with a S&W 4" 41 mag using 210 gr handloaded Noslers. She was trotting and took 3 steps and fell over. Again center lungs pass through.... Another friend took a nice buck with a 357 mag at about 50 yards. Pass through and the deer did run, but he watched it fall. I don't remember much of the story but he was excited.

My dad used the 44 cal 210 gr Speer GD in his Pedersoli ML for years (while I was growing up) with 90gr Pyrodex 2F. I don't remember him ever losing a deer to it.

I don't remember the name, but I also remember a post here where a gentleman's grand-daughter uses a light load (50 or 60 gr 777) with a 240gr cheap shot. They've had great success up to 125 yards if I remember it correctly. Doesn't sound undergunned to me.

When I sight in, I sight in for the bullseye, not a pie plate. Mistakes and accidents do happen, but with enough patience or ability, they are greatly reduced.

I appreciate all the feedback. I'll fill you all in on the results at the range and if I'm lucky to get the opportunities to take something, hopefully I can recover a slug. I haven't been able to yet with my other load I've been using for the last 8-10 years (started with 130gr 777 but changed to 110gr BH209 w/ 270gr Speer DC).

Semisane.... I agree with your post as well. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a mid range load. I hunted with a 240gr XTP and 100 gr 777 for years with great success. A friend uses it and won't change to anything else. He drives tacks with it. My uncle uses a 240gr XTP with 80 gr Pyrodex and won't change either. Me? I like to experiment. LOL
 
muskrat30 said:
Not that your plan wouldn't hang a deer in the buckpole, but why hobble yourself?

<snipped>

Your reduced velocity load may work just fine, but why not stick with more traditional velocities that provide more margin? For a youth or casual range shooting, may be a better time to use them.

What he said.
 
BadgerRidge said:
muskrat30 said:
Not that your plan wouldn't hang a deer in the buckpole, but why hobble yourself?

<snipped>

Your reduced velocity load may work just fine, but why not stick with more traditional velocities that provide more margin? For a youth or casual range shooting, may be a better time to use them.

What he said.

If I'm not comfortable with it's performance, I'm certainly not going to tell a youth to use it.
 
Baby girl and me have used 40 grains of 3f T7 and a TC Cheap Shot ( 240 gr)since 04. In her Traditions Tracker 50 caliber. 10 deer. 10 shots from 15 feet to 125 yards. Farthest one went was about 85 yards, couple bang flops and a few that never made it more than 25. 1350 fps. Chrono'd.
Match bullet to velocity, thank you Hornady, and happiness will result.
In my 50 Black Diamond XR, a 250 grain 45 XTP gets 1600 fps with 70 grains of 3f Swiss. No deer made it past 50 yards after taking one. Most were bang flops or a few wobbly steps. All pass throughs. Ranges from 10 feet to 150 yards.
My Super 45 Black Diamond XR uses 180 and 200 grain 40 caliber XTP's. 50 grains of Swiss 3f gives a 180 1550fps. 60 grains 1750. 60 grains gives a 200 grainer 1700 and 70 grains 1800 fps. Chrono'd. Nailed a nice I pointer with the 180/60 load. Went 50 yards. Recovered the bullet, sans jacket and weighing 122 grains after plowing through 3 ft of deer. Took a nice Doe with the 180/50 load. Bang flop. Took a fine big button Doe ( yup, buttons but all girl otherwise) with the 200/70 grain load. Bang flop. Ranges from 25 to 50 yards.
Careful how low you go on the powder though. 40 grain of Swiss in my 50 gives me a bore full of silly string from blowby of the sabot.
Haven't gone below 50 grains in the 45, but I think I could get below 40 with no issues.
Enjoy the light loads. Place your shots with the same care as you would with any other load and you will do well. They're easy on the shoulder( and wallet) but HARD on critters...
 
Ive killed a ton of deer at least 50 with the 240 gr xtp loaded with 80-85 gr. of pyrodex select and some more with 90-100 gr., terminal performance was pretty much identical on all of them, either a scrambled brain or lungs turned to jelly. No need to push pistol bullets to max or above velocity when they are designed to do their job at lower speeds. Their are guys that have been killing deer with 700-900 ft. lb. .45/50 cal air rifles out at 80-100 yds. and the deer are just as dead, like with cars everyone has the need for speed :)
 
So I got to the range FINALLY Sunday morning. It was about 49 degrees and a very light breeze. I tried the 44 cal 210gr with 60gr BH209 in my Encore topped with a 4x Burris Timberline and the 475 cal 275gr with 80 and 100gr 777 in my Black Diamond topped with a 2x7 Nikon Prostaff.

We'll start with the easy one. The 475 cal 275gr with both loads were all over the 11x17 target at 50 yards (3 shots each). I know they're very finicky and thought about pushing it even harder to see if it would tighten it up, but I already have a load like that in my Redemption that is a shooter (110gr BH209 w/ 44 cal 270gr Deep Curl). So enough with that bullet for me.

Now the interesting one. the Encore I bought used did not have a nice bore and after tons of soaking with Hoppes and scrubbing, it's still pretty rough. So I'm very pleased with the results I got. At 50 yards with the 210gr DC and 60gr BH, I got about a 1.5" group that was 2" high average. At 100 yards, I got about a 3.5" group (mostly left to right) that was 1" high average. Plugging everything into Federal's ballistic calculator that load is in the 1550 fps range. IMO... That's MORE than enough at 100 yards and is definitely on par with a 44 mag ballistics.

It's not a tack driver like I prefer, but granted the barrel leaves something to be desired as well. But for a 100 yard round, it's very acceptable.
 
I know a lot of shooters think more is better in the powder department. I cut my teeth on muzzle loaders, long before inline rifles. And back then we shot very mild moderate loads actually. A very common load was 70 grans of Pyrodex RS and a patched roundball. I never knew it was such an "Inadequate" load until I read some muzzle loading experts opinions. They warned of under powered and the inability for no expansion of the ball (that I never found by the way) Every deer I shot with that 70 grains and a round ball (usually a .54 caliber) died on the spot or very near to it. I guess its a good thing the deer never read those expert reports.

In my inline rifles I moved to 85 grains of powder and a 240 or bigger bullet. Large conicals like a 460 grain I moved to 65 grains of powder. That 460 by the way with a moderate load of powder shot stem to stern through a medium doe at 35 yards. It too never read the reports of low powder charges as it dropped in its tracks.

Now don't get me wrong some of my inline rifles I shoot 110 grains of powder with the bullet. Why? Because its accurate. And I am sure if the deer ever cooperate it would be hunting lethal. But whether its low velocity or high velocity, I think and will always believe it is shot placement. If you can't hit it in the killing spot all the powder charges in the world might not make a difference.

I am especially impressed with some of this testing of different bullets with 50 grains of powder. I am amazed at what that powder charge can accomplishment.
 
50 grains of BP or sub in a rifle under a pistol bullet pretty much duplicates the same ballistics as the the bullet was intended for in it's handgun counterpart. I've never heard anyone claim a .45 colt, 44 mag, 10mm Auto or other typical bullets as inadequate out to 100 yds for whitetail deer.
In fact I will even say that anyone who believes there is a value in pushing that bullet faster offers much more than a marginal flatter trajectory and extends their range proportional to the additional speed at a cost to recoil is mistaken. Dead is dead and any bullet that exits the animal is simply wasted. I'll even through in the factor that less recoil has more benefit in the shooter's bullet placement than whatever lethality might be gained at closer ranges. I've personally pushed the 10mm Auto bullet to 2600fps and dropped deer at 50 yds as well as down to 1200fps out of a 10mm Auto, and they both hit the dirt instantly.
The ONLY thing gained by added speed is trajectory and range of effectiveness. IF one has no need for extended ranges, then the reduction in recoil benefits to the shooter far outweighs any possible "knockdown" or margin of bad shot placement that added speed may offer. In fact, the bullet now operating within it's intended range will likely perform better at close ranges.
Just my .02
 
I forgot to include that the felt recoil was on par with a Brennekke 3" 410 slug.
 
cayuga said:
I guess its a good thing the deer never read those expert reports.

Thank you, that made me chuckle and I agree.

My youngest made a great shot with a 70gr load and it was quite a sight watching that big old doe doing a backflip and expiring right there.
 
Banerbird said:
Everyone I know that's ML hunted has preached higher speeds or bigger bullets or whatever... What I've noticed is that most of us do like the performance of handgun bullets, but we never think of pushing them at their designed velocities, only faster because their designed velozity is considered "undersized" for deer sized game. (Note that I'm looking at typical thick or heavy timber shooting, so 100yds would be max distance)

However... No one I know would ever doubt the effectiveness of a 44 mag or 480 Ruger on a deer, so here goes...

I've estimated that 60gr 777 w/ 210gr 44 cal Gold Dot will give me similar velocities to most factory 44 mag ammo. I've also estimated that 60/70gr BH209 w/ 275gr 475 cal Deep Curl will give me similar velocities to a 480 Ruger.

So here's what I'm going to try...

1) Take my TC Black Diamond and load the 60gr 777 w/ 210gr GD and shoot at 50 and 100 yds (100yd zero) and play with a calculator to see what my velocity is. If the bullet is stable (not keyholed) and the velocity is what I think it should be (~1400 fps), then why wouldn't it be OK up to 100 yards on deer?

2) Take either my TC Encore or LRC Redemption and load the 60/70gr BH209 w/ 275gr DC and do the same thing.

I know the 275gr 475 cal shoot OK out of my Redemption. I tried a few at 50 yds last year using the same powder charge as my normal load (270gr 44 cal DC w/ 110gr BH209) and the point of impact was within 1 inch of each other. BUT the 270gr load out of the Redemption is awesome on paper and deer. At 150 yd zero, it's only about 8" drop at 200 yards (about 4" group). Energy and velocity is more than enough at 300, but I don't have a range that long to see how accurate it is. Based on the Federal calculator, if I remember it correctly, the estimated velocity with that load is 2050-2100 fps. So I'm not really wanting to change that combo.

So if all works well, I'll have a 44 mag performance (light load in the Black Diamond), 480 Ruger performance (big and slow out of the Encore), and just under 444 Marlin performance (current Redemption load).

Any thoughts?



I shot two does last year with 70 grs BH209 under 300 gr Missouri Pinbuster. Both deer took a few steps and fell over.... Shots were between 50-75 yards. I think just as long as you know the limitations of your load and know its capabilities keep knocking them down!!!
 
OK. So I broke down and bought a Katahdin barrel and cut down the stock for my son. Using 60gr BH and the 210 gr Speer, it was dead nut at 100 and about 1.5" high at 50 yards (1" group @ 100 yds and 1.75" group @ 50 yds). I don't have a chronograph but using Federal's calculator and using the 100 yd zero, 1600fps put me about where the 50 yard group center was.

Knowing this would be a ballpark estimate, I'm more than happy with the results and wouldn't hesitate up to 125yds (I'll restrict my son to 100 yds MAX). My goal was to match 44mag factory ammo velocity. I'd say it's a success.

Now to drop a couple deer for the real test.

I don't have any pics of the gun yet, but man it looks like a toy being so short.
 
As I get older I have a tendency to load on the lighter side for under 100 yard shots, one load in particular I have used is home cast 225 grain bullet propelled by 60 grains of powder. Not only is this combo effective but it's one that a youth can shoot without the heavy recoil. I have shot plenty of heavy charged loads as well for longer range shots but is overkill for shorter ones. I have more than one muzzleloader I will load different ones according to the location I plan to hunt.

When Michigan allowed the use of of straight wall pistol cartridges in rifles during the regular deer season a few years ago there has been a tendency for many hunters I know to gravitate towards the big guns like the 450 Bushmaster. I guess they equate the heavy recoil and big boom to deader deer. I myself have had great success with a rifle chambered for the 357 Magnum which in comparison has little recoil. We all harvest plenty of deer but just use different strategies to do so.
 
I like your comparison of bullets going at pistol velocities. I have taken a few deer with revolvers chambered in 357 Magnum, 41 Magnum and 44 special. All were taken a 50 yards or less and I could not say I felt handicapped with any of them. My personal preference has been the 44 Special where I use what is known as the Skeeter Skelton load that shoots a 250 grain bullet at 950 - 1000 fps.
 

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