Newbie In Need of Help Please

Re: RE: Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Timberelk said:

So can anyone figure out why I'm getting inconsistent shots? Every time the gun was shot, it was shot in a lead sled and was steady when the trigger was slowly pulled. Scope parallax issues?


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Lead sleds have known to be death to rifle scopes, even expensive ones. If I had to use a lead sled , I wouldn't add any weight to it.

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herschel conyers said:

Timberelk said:

So can anyone figure out why I'm getting inconsistent shots? Every time the gun was shot, it was shot in a lead sled and was steady when the trigger was slowly pulled. Scope parallax issues?


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Lead sleds have known to be death to rifle scopes, even expensive ones. If I had to use a lead sled , I wouldn't add any weight to it.

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Really? They damage rifle scopes? How?


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Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Timberelk said:

herschel conyers said:

Timberelk said:

So can anyone figure out why I'm getting inconsistent shots? Every time the gun was shot, it was shot in a lead sled and was steady when the trigger was slowly pulled. Scope parallax issues?


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Lead sleds have known to be death to rifle scopes, even expensive ones. If I had to use a lead sled , I wouldn't add any weight to it.

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Really? They damage rifle scopes? How?

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Here's what I'd do first, being that you're wanting to, or perceive to shoot long range (200+), use a heavier bullet. Bullets of 290 to 300grs provide increased energy down range.

When you start shooting again, the first thing you should check is the scope and rather it is tracking or not. Shoot 3, better 5, rounds at 100yds, holding on a single point, even if you have to put a light colored dot in the bull center. Paying close attention to your existing scope setting, turn the vertical turret up 1/2 - 3/4 turn and turn it back to your zero. Then turn it 1/2 - 3/4 turn down, then turn it back to zero. If your scope is tracking properly, you should be able to shoot 5 rounds into the same group you previously shot. If it doesn't and isn't even close, then I'd highly suggest you mount a different scope. No sense burning any more propellant or bullets until you verify the scope tracks properly.

I'd be stuffing a 290gr Barnes T-EZ down the bore on top of 110grs volume of BH209. But, that's me.

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

You can clean out the crud ring without pulling the plug as it forms at the top of the pellet/ powder column. Had to do it every shot with my old Omega and Triple 7

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Timberelk said:

So can anyone figure out why I'm getting inconsistent shots? Every time the gun was shot, it was shot in a lead sled and was steady when the trigger was slowly pulled. Scope parallax issues?


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There is not always a magic Bullet (sorry for the pun) to always say "This is you problem"

All of the above can cause the issue you are having. I will also say that even if you were to sell this rifle and go buy a NIB CVA that you may very well see the same thing with it and still have to work though the same or similar issue.

Since your scope does have the adjustable objective for adjusting out parallax, set it to 100 yards since that is what your working with at the moment. Then once you have the rifle set up in the rest do the little head moves I spoke of. If the cross hair stays steady then your good to go from there. If it moves any make a small adjustment to the adjusting ring and try again, those numbers are not always right on so think of them as a starting point. Once the cross hair does not move then you can proceed to the next thing on the list to try.

If you looked in most of the guys here range boxes you will most likely find 2 to 4 different types of sabots. Bore sizes can vary quite a bit from rifle to rifle even in the same model/Manufacturer. So we will try a different sabot with any bullet we try to get the right fit between the bullet/sabot to bore. For sabots you rarely will get good groups with a sabot/bullet combo that slides down the bore with one finger. I personally like to need to "Short Start" the bullet past the crown with the aid of a short starter and then use the ramrod to seat the combo onto the powder. I also like a combo that I have to use a good amount of pressure (not hang onto the rod with both hands).

Most of us do not buy the pre-packed stuff due to this reason. We buy sabots separately and by the bullets in bulk, this is also cheaper. Lots of the bullets shot are Pistol bullets, .429-.430 are for 44mag and .451-.452 are designed for the 45 long colt or 454 Casull, all of which shoot in the same velocity range your ML will shoot.

When you decide to shoot BH, do yourself a favor and pick up a Volumetric Powder measure. The lines on the BH tubes have not proved accurate by most reports on them. Pour the powder in the measure and then you can transfer to the tubes for field or range use. IF you go with a scale just be aware that in the Ml world all powder is loaded using a Volume measure and not Weight like in Center Fire. You can load using a scale, lot of us do, just remember that you need to convert the value differences. 100gn by Volume is not 100 grains by weight.

Another question comes to mind too. Since you are shooting the SST (pointed bullet) and you using a ramrod tip that is for pointed bullets or is it flat to slight concave?

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

My new to me Omega I bought back last May likes the .452 dia 250 grn Hornady xtp with 100 grns volume Black Horn and Federal 209A primer. I topped the gun with a Nikon inline xr.

ShawnT said:

Timberelk said:

So can anyone figure out why I'm getting inconsistent shots? Every time the gun was shot, it was shot in a lead sled and was steady when the trigger was slowly pulled. Scope parallax issues?


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Click to expand...

There is not always a magic Bullet (sorry for the pun) to always say "This is you problem"

All of the above can cause the issue you are having. I will also say that even if you were to sell this rifle and go buy a NIB CVA that you may very well see the same thing with it and still have to work though the same or similar issue.

Since your scope does have the adjustable objective for adjusting out parallax, set it to 100 yards since that is what your working with at the moment. Then once you have the rifle set up in the rest do the little head moves I spoke of. If the cross hair stays steady then your good to go from there. If it moves any make a small adjustment to the adjusting ring and try again, those numbers are not always right on so think of them as a starting point. Once the cross hair does not move then you can proceed to the next thing on the list to try.

If you looked in most of the guys here range boxes you will most likely find 2 to 4 different types of sabots. Bore sizes can vary quite a bit from rifle to rifle even in the same model/Manufacturer. So we will try a different sabot with any bullet we try to get the right fit between the bullet/sabot to bore. For sabots you rarely will get good groups with a sabot/bullet combo that slides down the bore with one finger. I personally like to need to "Short Start" the bullet past the crown with the aid of a short starter and then use the ramrod to seat the combo onto the powder. I also like a combo that I have to use a good amount of pressure (not hang onto the rod with both hands).

Most of us do not buy the pre-packed stuff due to this reason. We buy sabots separately and by the bullets in bulk, this is also cheaper. Lots of the bullets shot are Pistol bullets, .429-.430 are for 44mag and .451-.452 are designed for the 45 long colt or 454 Casull, all of which shoot in the same velocity range your ML will shoot.

When you decide to shoot BH, do yourself a favor and pick up a Volumetric Powder measure. The lines on the BH tubes have not proved accurate by most reports on them. Pour the powder in the measure and then you can transfer to the tubes for field or range use. IF you go with a scale just be aware that in the Ml world all powder is loaded using a Volume measure and not Weight like in Center Fire. You can load using a scale, lot of us do, just remember that you need to convert the value differences. 100gn by Volume is not 100 grains by weight.

Another question comes to mind too. Since you are shooting the SST (pointed bullet) and you using a ramrod tip that is for pointed bullets or is it flat to slight concave?

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I set the gun in a lead speed and aimed at a specific knot in a tree. Parallax was fine, tracking of the scope wasn't great but wasn't extremely bad either... what's your thoughts?


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My local sporting good store carries the tomohson center sabots, 50 for 9.99. Should I try those or keep looking for the harvester sabots?


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Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Lots of good information in previous posts. My ideas about your problems are:

1. TC barrels with QLA are notorious for being poorly done like off center or crooked angled etc... and that can kill accuracy, solution is have smith cut QLA off and recrown barrel.

2. Get a better scope. Scope for a quality rifle should be quality and cost 50% to 100% of cost of a quality rifle.

3. Heat is the enemy of sabots. If ambient temps are over 80f just forget shooting sabots. If temps 75f down to 60f then a 20 to 25 minute wait between shots necessary. Under 60f then a 12 to 15 minute wait be OK. I use a "cool rod" to shorten wait times. It's a solid aluminum .5 inch dia rod that is turned down to fit in barrel easily. It acts as a heat sink and when not in the gun I stand it in a tube of ice, after shot wipe rod and insert in barrel to absorb heat, then swab barrel and load and shoot. Works great. If you "blow" a sabot the barrel needs to be cleaned real good with a copper or bronze brush and the stuff that gets plastic out of barrels, If plastic residue left in barrel accuracy will be bad.

4. For long range shooting heavier bullets are best. I suggest you get black crush rib sabots and shoot bullets of 300 or more grains. The Hornady FTX 325 in .458 would be a good choice. It should work in the black crush rib sabot or the MMP orange sabot for .458 bullets.

5. Bigger bullets and more powder for long range will mean lots more recoil. Be sure you have a properly fitting stock, proper eye relief on the scope and good technique. Using the lead sled doesn't kill scopes it's the heavy recoil from heavy powder charges and heavy bullets in ML that does it. SML rifles are notorious for scope killing even if shot with bags and not a sled.

6. Blackhorn 209 is designed for heavier bullets. Using bullets under 300 grains and not having a really tight fit = ignition and burn characteristics are haphazard. Use the 300 + grain bullets and a tight fitting sabot with the BH209. Also use full power primers with the BH209. Winchester, CCI and Federal all good. Use whichever one gives least leaking and blowback through the plug.

7. Find an experienced long range ML shooter to go to the range with you to trouble shoot your problem. They may see your problem quickly. Nothing better than eyes on the problem to see what's happening.

8. The Omega may not be the best choice for your hunt. Start another thread here on MM and ask for opinions and advice to meet your objective. I'll say that readily available rifles to do what you want would be a Savage ML2 or a upper end Knight Rifle. There are others but I know they are quality guns, finding one might be a different problem.

This reflects my experience and opinion gained from experience. Others will differ. Good luck, W

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Timberelk said:

My local sporting good store carries the tomohson center sabots, 50 for 9.99. Should I try those or keep looking for the harvester sabots?


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Sabots are available direct from "Harvester" and MMP. Also from online retailers and Cabelas etc... I have suggested the black crush rib sabots and .458 bullets in my post above. W

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

With BH209 you need to set the bullet hard on the powder like 70 lbs or more every time you shoot just keep it the same. if your not setting it hard you can get the shotgun shooting that you say your getting. and cool the barrel sabots don't like heat it makes them soft and they will slip on the lands in the bore making for bad shots. cooler weather is coming and makes for better groups 50s or cooler. good luck and have fun.

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Did you check the barrel lugs to make sure they are tight? After that, get some CR sabots and see how the SST shoot with 100gr powder for a start.

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

"I only have about 2 weeks until my hunt that only lasts for 1.5 weeks... I'm considering selling the TC and buying an CVA optima in hopes it's shoots accurately out of the box"....timberelk

You posted this comment yesterday and I certainly hope you aren't humoring it seriously. Two weeks is a short time to get to know a new gun. It could be done but its always better to really know your gun well before hunting it. Nothing will "shoot well" out of the box in my opinion and is not a prudent practice on big game. You'll need to develop a decent load....an accurate load and at this point you don't know if its a problem with a scope of the gun or you shooting what you have. Replacing the gun may do the trick, but you should plan then on a new scope as well and as mentioned before, those sleds can be murder on scopes so you'd be best using bags to sight in.

In the picture with the pink and green circles, are those two groups from using the same identical components and powder charges without any scope adjustments at the same distance or were you toying with a load or powder when you got them?

Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

I missed the point about the 2 week window. Yes, that's pretty short to work through issues and then develop an accurate load.

Here would be my thought for a Plan B - do you know someone who shoots muzzleloaders who might have a spare (a spare that has an accurate, proven load) they could lend you?

MrTom said:

"I only have about 2 weeks until my hunt that only lasts for 1.5 weeks... I'm considering selling the TC and buying an CVA optima in hopes it's shoots accurately out of the box"....timberelk

You posted this comment yesterday and I certainly hope you aren't humoring it seriously. Two weeks is a short time to get to know a new gun. It could be done but its always better to really know your gun well before hunting it. Nothing will "shoot well" out of the box in my opinion and is not a prudent practice on big game. You'll need to develop a decent load....an accurate load and at this point you don't know if its a problem with a scope of the gun or you shooting what you have. Replacing the gun may do the trick, but you should plan then on a new scope as well and as mentioned before, those sleds can be murder on scopes so you'd be best using bags to sight in.

In the picture with the pink and green circles, are those two groups from using the same identical components and powder charges without any scope adjustments at the same distance or were you toying with a load or powder when you got them?

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I wish I was joking about the 2 weeks... I purchased the gun about 1.5 months ago in order to shoot every weekend (Saturday and Sunday) to be prepared for the hunt. I purchased the tag about 2 months ago and it took me 2 weeks to find a decent used muzzleloader. But I've shot every weekend for a total of 80-90 shots and haven't been able to get this gun/scope to pattern so that's why I'm unfortunately in the position I am... and I don't know anyone that muzzleloader hunts, as all my buddies and I typically archery hunt.

Yes, in the picture the pink and green groups were from the same 2 pellet load, Hornady SST 250 grain with Hornady sabots and cci mag 209.


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Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

In lieu of your time pinch I guess I'd get the Optima, new scope and find a load that will plant 5 shots in a " bull at 100 and call it good as long as you commit to shots only inside that 100 yards. You can do the finesse after your hunt.

I'd also not put anything stronger than a 3X9 on the new gun as you certainly can use that scope easily out to 300 yards and the scope will be manageable for you until you get yourself and the gun dialed into each other. If you want to jack power later, so be it but for the immediate hunting needs stay simple with a 3X9, plain ole duplex crosshair.

The Optima is a fine weapon for the money regardless of the model you decide on. I have the Optima pistol and that thing is a shooter. I also have an Accura that is very, very accurate using the 300 grain .44 cal EXPs in Green Crush Ribs over 77 grains of 209, a weighed charge....5 shots in an inch at 100 yds.

MrTom said:

In lieu of your time pinch I guess I'd get the Optima, new scope and find a load that will plant 5 shots in a " bull at 100 and call it good as long as you commit to shots only inside that 100 yards. You can do the finesse after your hunt.

I'd also not put anything stronger than a 3X9 on the new gun as you certainly can use that scope easily out to 300 yards and the scope will be manageable for you until you get yourself and the gun dialed into each other. If you want to jack power later, so be it but for the immediate hunting needs stay simple with a 3X9, plain ole duplex crosshair.

The Optima is a fine weapon for the money regardless of the model you decide on. I have the Optima pistol and that thing is a shooter. I also have an Accura that is very, very accurate using the 300 grain .44 cal EXPs in Green Crush Ribs over 77 grains of 209, a weighed charge....5 shots in an inch at 100 yds.

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I was thinking I'd try new rings/bases on the omega as well as new vortex or Nikon (possibly luepold) scope and if it doesn't fix the problem then I can take the scope off and put it on a new optima.


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Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

I have to agree with MrTom. You are really behind the 8-ball. The Optima shoots well with about anything you load. I wouldn't recommend the Konus scope. Nikon inline xr or Leopold ultimate slam would be good choices. Check out Muzzle-Loader.com. You could have them mount your scope of choice. Try Barnes 290 Tez with 100 grns Black Horn powder. You can always figure things out later with the Omega and choose later what gun you like the most and sell the other.

rangerod said:

I have to agree with MrTom. You are really behind the 8-ball. The Optima shoots well with about anything you load. I wouldn't recommend the Konus scope. Nikon inline xr or Leopold ultimate slam would be good choices. Check out Muzzle-Loader.com. You could have them mount your scope of choice. Try Barnes 290 Tez with 100 grns Black Horn powder. You can always figure things out later with the Omega and choose later what gun you like the most and sell the other.

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I will need the BH 209 compatiable CVA optima breach plug correct?


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Re: Newbie In Need of Help Please

Timberelk said:

rangerod said:

I have to agree with MrTom. You are really behind the 8-ball. The Optima shoots well with about anything you load. I wouldn't recommend the Konus scope. Nikon inline xr or Leopold ultimate slam would be good choices. Check out Muzzle-Loader.com. You could have them mount your scope of choice. Try Barnes 290 Tez with 100 grns Black Horn powder. You can always figure things out later with the Omega and choose later what gun you like the most and sell the other.

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I will need the BH 209 compatiable CVA optima breach plug correct?

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Yes.