Chronograph data Knight ultralight

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Cattledog

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Hi Group,

Figured I would share some data.

Shooting a Knight Ultralight. Using 63 grains blackhorn 209 weighed with Winchester W209 primer. Bullet and sabot are Barnes 250 grain TMZ with yellow supplied sabot.

Three rounds fired. Average 1666 FPS
Temp 56 F Pressure 30.02 inHg

1 1636 fps
2 1681 fps
3 1683 fps

The shots group well with a cold barrel, but open up a lot with a warm barrel. I figured that this load should have been right around 1800 fps. I am glad I checked. This will be my hunting load this year along with my omega x7 using 63 grains black horn 209, winchester primers, blue sabots and 200 grain .40 SST.

Anyone have any chronograph data for an ultralight?

Thanks

Dave
 
I would agree it seems low.
This might help. Data from BH website.

Double click on photo and it may appear clearer.
 

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I am not all that versed on the weight versus volume of BH but I come out with 63 grains being 94 gr. by volume - if so that is a mild load coupled with the lighter weight 250 grain bullet that velocity seems close...

This is a ballistic sheet shot with a calculated 120 grains volume - the powder was actually weighed... This is a little lighter bullet.

Lehigh_452x240_CF-_HP.jpg


This is a little heavier bullet with 120 grains of BH

Lehigh_452-265_CF-_HP.jpg
 
I got a low deviation 1950 fps in my 26" barreled 50 cal, 250 grain SST with 120 grains by volume of B209. I have since backed off a bit to 110-115 grain volume loads.
 
Cattledog - in my mind, at 90gr of volume with BH...those numbers seem a little low.
But obviously they aren't... and I've been told my mind ain't right a few times over the years :lol:
 
Thanks for the information everyone. Low velocity or not, the chronograph should be correct. I made a dope chart for the rifle and stuck it to the stock. I figured the load is good to about 180 yards. I looked up the minimum velocity for the tmz to expand and have 1050 fps as the spec. Sound reasonable?

As a side note, I chronograph another two guys rifles but only one shot.
First was an encore 26" inch barrel with 250 grain Thompson center sst, cci 209M primer, and three pellets of imr white hot. That load was running 2154 fps. I was surprised.

The other was an omega 28" barrel. Same 250 grain sst, primer, and 3 pellets of white hot. He came in at 2051 fps. It was a left over load from the prior season. Personally I would have pulled that load instead of shooting it, to high of a chance for a hang fire.
 
Cattledog said:
Thanks for the information everyone. Low velocity or not, the chronograph should be correct. I made a dope chart for the rifle and stuck it to the stock. I figured the load is good to about 180 yards. I looked up the minimum velocity for the tmz to expand and have 1050 fps as the spec. Sound reasonable?

As a side note, I chronograph another two guys rifles but only one shot.
First was an encore 26" inch barrel with 250 grain Thompson center sst, cci 209M primer, and three pellets of imr white hot. That load was running 2154 fps. I was surprised.

The other was an omega 28" barrel. Same 250 grain sst, primer, and 3 pellets of white hot. He came in at 2051 fps. It was a left over load from the prior season. Personally I would have pulled that load instead of shooting it, to high of a chance for a hang fire.

Curious, where did you get this information? Barnes has most often suggested 1600 fps for optimal opening of their solid copper bullets.
 
I would not count on the TEZ or TMZ to expand as designed at that low of a impact speed. The big open HP like on the 250gr Expander MZ and XPB yes but not on the tipped or small HP Spitfires.
 
Cattledog said:
The 1050 fps is from the Barnes website.

"Higher ballistic coefficient aids exceptional long-range performance. Remains intact at extreme velocities, yet expands at only 1050 fps."

http://www.barnesbullets.com/muzzleload ... -fire-tmz/

Sure enough that is what it says... Have never seen that before.

Thanks for bringing that forward.
 
Cattledog said:
.........I looked up the minimum velocity for the tmz to expand and have 1050 fps as the spec. Sound reasonable?..........
Not to me. Based on this example, i am skeptical. The information Barnes provided, seems to be some optimistic. When driven by more powder, and thus traveling faster, the bullet worked good.
 
Hi Ron,

Thanks for the information. Right now I am not sure what to think about the TMZ. Based on your info I would not use a TEZ.

I found the below info in the Barnes website.

"The larger hollow point on our .50 caliber 250 grain MZ bullet has an advantage during low-velocity expansion. However, the smaller hollow point on the .50 caliber 220 grain Knight Red Hot has a better BC because of the bullet’s streamlined design. This contributes to better retained velocity downrange."

http://www.barnesbullets.com/faq/

Is the TEZ hollow point diameter the same as the TEZ? I shot a doe last year at 128 yards with the regular mountaineer using 85 gains BH209 and 250 grain TMZ. The wound was impressive, no issues with bullet expansion. Bigger wound channel than the 300 grain .429 XTP for several years. I may just switch to the .40 200 grain SST... That bullet works great at low speeds.

Any one have a 250 grain Barnes TEZ hanging around? I can measure a 250 grain TEZ.

Just to throw gas on the fire... I found this on a google search.. It's from Randy Wakeman..

"For the tougher bullets (XPB 275 Barnes as shown above, including the Parker 300 gr. Match Hunter) 1400 fps strike velocity is plenty to ensure bullet deformation / expansion. In the case of the XPB 275 Barnes, 1400 fps is the requisite velocity for expansion (45 degree petal opening). The Barnes Original .458 SS-SP (.032 in. jacket) needs 1600 fps strike velocity. The Barnes Spitfire T-EZ 250 and T-EZ 290's expand at 1200 fps or so strike velocity. The standard tube-type MZ-Expanders have a huge hollow point, and open at even lower velocities: ideal for 80 - 90 grain blackpowder or Pyrodex charges."

http://www.randywakeman.com/Muzzleloade ... rmance.htm


and

"Barnes 245 grain Spitfire MZ, 285 grain Spitfire MZ, 250 grain Spitfire TMZ, and Barnes 290 grain TMZ

The Barnes "Spitfire" 245 and 285 gr. bullets were new for 2005; the 250 and 290 gr. Spitfire TMZ bullets are new for 2006. They all share proprietary yellow MMP sabots that accommodates their boat tails, and all have relatively pointy noses that make them more ballistically efficient. They are the flattest shooting muzzleloading projectiles on the market in their weight classes, and as best I can tell at this point the 245 gr. Spitfires and the 250 TMZ Spitfires shoot very similarly.

The same can be said for the 285 Spitfires and the 290 TMZ Spitfires. The polymer tip on the TMZ bullets is what sets them apart from the rest of the Barnes MZ line. The construction of the TMZ is more of a traditional "MZ-Expander" gapping hollow point with a polymer tip than the Spitfire. Due to this I believe the TMZ will expand at lower velocities than the standard Spitfire, and would be my choice of the two offerings."

http://www.chuckhawks.com/barnes_muzzle ... _guide.htm
 
What you are finding is exactly why I posted in your thread... Barnes are very good bullets but...

I have shot a lot of XPB's from my Knights in a full bore application and have not had the expansion I wanted at the longer ranges. When I searched for information on the bullet - 1600 fps was the magic number given.

You can see by this ballistic sheet it is not going to fill my bill as to being effective to 200 yards.

50x275_XPB_BC_170.jpg


I went with the 275 because the open nose of the hollow point - I thought it would offer a greater chance of expansion.

50x275_Barnes_XPB.jpg


This picture shows te difference between the 275 & 325 XPB

275_-_325_XPB.jpg


I have said this before and I will repeat it here... I do not think the pointy type bullets offer you the performance you might think they do in the world of muzzleloading hunting. They are very good for raising the BC of the bullet and long range target shooting. But, for me with the longest range that I might shoot would 200+ yards - there really is no advantage!
 
Great picture! I am surprised by the difference in hollow point size. I assume the 325 is for brown/grizzly bear defense vs. the 275 as a hog/deer hunting bullet?

BTW, did you chronograph the 275 load? 1800 fps seems low?

So what would be your min velocity/ max distance for the 275 grain XPB? At 1600 fps the bullet is only at 53 or so yards.

I agree on bullet selection. Pointy might not be better for hunting. Designed for hunting in the velocity range the shooter plans to operate in is the key to proper bullet function. I am starting to miss the .40 200 grain SST...
 
Cattledog said:
Great picture! I am surprised by the difference in hollow point size. I assume the 325 is for brown/grizzly bear defense vs. the 275 as a hog/deer hunting bullet?

BTW, did you chronograph the 275 load? 1800 fps seems low?

So what would be your min velocity/ max distance for the 275 grain XPB? At 1600 fps the bullet is only at 53 or so yards.

I agree on bullet selection. Pointy might not be better for hunting. Designed for hunting in the velocity range the shooter plans to operate in is the key to proper bullet function. I am starting to miss the .40 200 grain SST...

Shoot you are correct... 1800 was with 100 grains of T7, the 120 gr. load muzzle velocity was 1950

This is not an XPB - it is a 275 grain Lehigh - velocities would be very similar

275120_T7.jpg


The Lehigh will open down to 1200 fps according to the factory but I know they will open down to 1000 fps. The one above and the two below

Well since you brought it up take a look at this 40x200... The bullet on the left is the Lehigh/Bloodline Brass and the one on the right is the Lehigh 40x200 Copper - but the copper is not out in the market yet.

Lehigh_40x200_CF_Brass-Copper.jpg


A friend of mine back east has taken deer @ near 400 yards with the brass bullet.

200-40_HPLehigh_Actual.jpg


And really this one might be the best of them... but I personally would use the 452x265 for elk.

Lehigh_451x230_CF-_HP.jpg


Lehigh_451x230.jpg
 
Thanks For the information. I will keep an eye out for the Leigh .40 copper bullets. Might be an bullet for next season.
 

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