TC Shockwaves bullet concern

livetohunt228 · Dec 10, 2017

Hey everyone! Happy Holidays!! Looking for some advice, suggestions or knowledge. Bought my 1st muzzleloader over the summer, it's a CVA Optima V2. I love it! Shot it throughout the summer and shot a few different loads but settled on 2 triple seven pellets(100 grain), a 250 grain TC Shockwave sabot bullet and a 209 primer as it was hitting the most consistent. I got the gun shooting pretty decent out to 100 yds. As someone who doesn't and hasn't shot guns much, I was very happy to be consistently hitting the target at 100 yds. Now fast forward to muzzleloader season. I was fortunate enough to shot a nice buck, shot him at 63 yds, broadside and ended up hitting him a little farther back from where I was aiming. Got on the 1st spot of blood which was very hard to find, found it maybe 60 yds from where I shot him, it was where he entered the timber so some blood was see able on some light brown colored grass. I followed a very sparadic blood trial, a drop here, a drop there for another 40 yds. Found my best spot where the deer must of stood for a moment and that was the last spot of blood I/we found. Decided to back out and get on it 1st thing in the am. Got back out at 1st light and picked up the track and could not find another drop of blood from the previous spot the night before. So I decided to walk in circles looking for blood and or the deer and eventually went up hill a bit to a really thick area. I got on a deer trail that ran E to W and stopped and looked up, then down several times before to my absolute surprise, looked forward and saw him laying there. I couldn't believe it. This was now roughly 200 yds from where I had originally shot him. Was truly beyond excited!! Too add to the story, my brother who I was hunting with also shot a great buck using the same load except he was using 150 grains of triple seven. He shot his at 70 yds and again we had no blood. It only went 50 yds as he double lunged it and there was barely any blood where we found him laying. Upon gutting him it remained all inside and it was with a pass through, both deer had pass throughs. We're mostly bow hunters and are used to getting good blood after our shots. My concern is the amount of blood that was put out from both these deer. I'm talking barely anything. I've heard that muzzleloaders don't necessarily put out good blood trails, don't know if this is true or not but I can't imagine this is normal. Or is it? Is it the bullet... the Shockwaves? Anyone experience this issue with this bullet or others? I'm new to this and this is the 1st deer either of us have taken with a muzzleloader. Any advice or knowledge would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!!

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daddy o · Dec 10, 2017

I know there have been several deer killed the with TC Shockwaves but you will probably get several responses similar to mine. I used to use them. Too many times there was very little blood and after finding deer and seeing the exit hole the same size as entrance hole I figured they are not expanding. Which is probably the single biggest complaint against them. More often than not they don't expand and essentially just pencil through. I started using Barnes TEZ and will never go back to TC Shockwaves. The Barnes are a bit more expensive but will expand everytime. The last deer I shot had an exit wound you could almost stick a fist in. I have also heard good things about the bloodline / lehigh bullets but have never tried them yet. I am sure there are other great bullets out there, but this is my experience. Good luck with whatever you choose.

Busta · Dec 10, 2017

Yours sounds like it was a high liver shot? 200 yards with sparse blood is not uncommon for recovery with that shot with any bullet.

Your brothers sounds like it was a high double lung shot. The body cavity will fill up before you start seeing much blood with any bullet. Fortunately they only go about 50 yards before that happens.

I've shot 35+ deer with the Hornady SST/FTX and T/C Shockwaves in 200/250/300 grain. Mostly in saboted muzzleloaders, but also in 20ga 250gr saboted slugs and just this year in the 250gr .450 Bushmaster cartridge. Not one of them made it over 60 yards. Several, as in this years buck, were bang-flops.

One thing that has changed over the years, is the sabots that are included in the packaging. The yellow T/C Super Glide, and red Hornady Low-Drag are a big share of the problem. They are just too easy to move down the bore, as most want easy loading. This coupled with unsealed old Pelleted Powder is a recipe for low velocity performance.

See this every year with pellets, reduced youth loads, and the Super Glide/Low Drag sabots. Lower velocity loads do not perform at the bullets designed performance parameters. Ironically these deer are recovered, if the bullet goes through the boiler room, because nothing can live with a .452"+ hole through their heart, lungs, liver.

As a bowhunter, you probably are shooting from an elevated platform at close range, entering mid way up the body and exciting lower on the off side? Staying back from the shoulder? You will get better blood trails with the lower exit.

If you are gun hunting from the ground or from an elevated platform at longer ranges, and you shoot half way up the body and back from the shoulder, your exit is much higher in the deer. The blood will have to fill up to that level before it starts spilling out.

With that said, if you get both lungs, you will also get blood being aspirated and being blown out of the nostrils and mouth. I've never had what some say is the bullets penciling through with no expansion in any of the deer I've shot with them. All exit wounds showed signs of expansion. I have only recovered 1 200 grain Shockwave after going through both shoulders and coming to rest under the hide in the off side shoulder. It was a perfect mushroom. I have also never short one with Pellets or the Newer Super Glide/Low Drag sabots. Therein lies the root cause of people getting poor expansion, because the bullet is not traveling at its intended velocity.

If you like the SST/Shockwave bullets, I would buy the Hornady 250 grain FTX (same bullet) in bulk, and a good pack of 50 snug fitting sabots to go with them. Harvestor Crush Rib, MMP HPH 24 or HPH 12 might be a good place to start. Oh, and ditch the Pellets for Triple Se7en loose powder, or Blackhorn 209. You'll need the Blackhorn Breech Plug from CVA or Western Powders for Shooting Blackhorn 209.

See the sticky at the top of the page and this chart for saboted bullet loading diameters. Click on pic for clarity.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9798

dbowling · Dec 10, 2017

I've shot 2 deer with the 250 gr Shockwave and both deer had .50 cent sized exits and blood trails were copius..was using 110 gr BH209

livetohunt228 · Dec 10, 2017

Re: RE: Re: TC Shockwaves bullet concern

Busta said:
Yours sounds like it was a high liver shot? 200 yards with sparse blood is not uncommon for recovery with that shot with any bullet.

Your brothers sounds like it was a high double lung shot. The body cavity will fill up before you start seeing much blood with any bullet. Fortunately they only go about 50 yards before that happens.

I've shot 35+ deer with the Hornady SST/FTX and T/C Shockwaves in 200/250/300 grain. Mostly in saboted muzzleloaders, but also in 20ga 250gr saboted slugs and just this year in the 250gr .450 Bushmaster cartridge. Not one of them made it over 60 yards. Several, as in this years buck, were bang-flops.

One thing that has changed over the years, is the sabots that are included in the packaging. The yellow T/C Super Glide, and red Hornady Low-Drag are a big share of the problem. They are just too easy to move down the bore, as most want easy loading. This coupled with unsealed old Pelleted Powder is a recipe for low velocity performance.

See this every year with pellets, reduced youth loads, and the Super Glide/Low Drag sabots. Lower velocity loads do not perform at the bullets designed performance parameters. Ironically these deer are recovered, if the bullet goes through the boiler room, because nothing can live with a .452"+ hole through their heart, lungs, liver.

As a bowhunter, you probably are shooting from an elevated platform at close range, entering mid way up the body and exciting lower on the off side? Staying back from the shoulder? You will get better blood trails with the lower exit.

If you are gun hunting from the ground or from an elevated platform at longer ranges, and you shoot half way up the body and back from the shoulder, your exit is much higher in the deer. The blood will have to fill up to that level before it starts spilling out.

With that said, if you get both lungs, you will also get blood being aspirated and being blown out of the nostrils and mouth. I've never had what some say is the bullets penciling through with no expansion in any of the deer I've shot with them. All exit wounds showed signs of expansion. I have only recovered 1 200 grain Shockwave after going through both shoulders and coming to rest under the hide in the off side shoulder. It was a perfect mushroom. I have also never short one with Pellets or the Newer Super Glide/Low Drag sabots. Therein lies the root cause of people getting poor expansion, because the bullet is not traveling at its intended velocity.

If you like the SST/Shockwave bullets, I would buy the Hornady 250 grain FTX (same bullet) in bulk, and a good pack of 50 snug fitting sabots to go with them. Harvestor Crush Rib, MMP HPH 24 or HPH 12 might be a good place to start. Oh, and ditch the Pellets for Triple Se7en loose powder, or Blackhorn 209. You'll need the Blackhorn Breech Plug from CVA or Western Powders for Shooting Blackhorn 209.

See the sticky at the top of the page and this chart for saboted bullet loading diameters. Click on pic for clarity.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9798

Thanks so much for all the great information... you were spot on with the placement of the hits. Shooting guns is new to me, I've only shot one other deer with a gun and it was with a 12 guage probably 10 yrs or so ago. Have just been bow hunting most of my life and decided I needed to increase my odds and get out there with a gun as well. Decided on the CVA. As with anything, I know it will require lots of practice and gaining as much knowledge as I can. That's why I wrote this post. I knew I could get some great advice to start with. Thanks again!

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livetohunt228 · Dec 10, 2017

Re: RE: Re: TC Shockwaves bullet concern

daddy o said:
I know there have been several deer killed the with TC Shockwaves but you will probably get several responses similar to mine. I used to use them. Too many times there was very little blood and after finding deer and seeing the exit hole the same size as entrance hole I figured they are not expanding. Which is probably the single biggest complaint against them. More often than not they don't expand and essentially just pencil through. I started using Barnes TEZ and will never go back to TC Shockwaves. The Barnes are a bit more expensive but will expand everytime. The last deer I shot had an exit wound you could almost stick a fist in. I have also heard good things about the bloodline / lehigh bullets but have never tried them yet. I am sure there are other great bullets out there, but this is my experience. Good luck with whatever you choose.

Thanks so much for the response and info, much appreciated!

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ohihunter2014 · Dec 10, 2017

I will never use that bullet as long as I live. I shot a nice big bodied 8pt last year in January with snow on the ground broadside at about 50yards or so. I didn't get one single drop of blood because the bullet didn't pass through. I was using 120gr 777 mag pellets in a 50cal cva optima v2 with the longer barrel. My buck ran about 100yards and both lungs were mush but no exit hole to push blood out of. I'm guessing the bullet didn't expand.

I have been asking alot of questions on here and the consensus seems to be 300gr XTP or barnes bullets. I would try something non balistic tip like a HP or flat nose. I was able to get .452 300gr xtp to shoot a 3 shot ragged hole at 100yards tonight.

phenix78_99 · Dec 10, 2017

livetohunt228, I just sent you a PM. Please let me know if you have any questions.

ohiohunter2017, I concur with your assessment good sir.

jims · Dec 10, 2017

I have never had the trouble you mentioned with that bullet so I do not know what to offer. Ours never went more than 30 yards.

emrah · Dec 11, 2017

daddy o said:
I know there have been several deer killed the with TC Shockwaves but you will probably get several responses similar to mine. I used to use them. Too many times there was very little blood and after finding deer and seeing the exit hole the same size as entrance hole I figured they are not expanding. Which is probably the single biggest complaint against them. More often than not they don't expand and essentially just pencil through. I started using Barnes TEZ and will never go back to TC Shockwaves. The Barnes are a bit more expensive but will expand everytime. The last deer I shot had an exit wound you could almost stick a fist in. I have also heard good things about the bloodline / lehigh bullets but have never tried them yet. I am sure there are other great bullets out there, but this is my experience. Good luck with whatever you choose.

1000x exactly what he just said. Exact experience. Switched to TEZs.

Emrah

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Fort Valley Man · Dec 12, 2017

The Shockwave or the Hornady SST 250 grain is a good bullet. I have never lost a deer with that bullet, and normally they go down in their tracks unless I miss my mark. Shot placement is key to a fast recovery.

emrah · Dec 12, 2017

That's just it. It's a good bullet... until it isn't. It expands great... until it doesn't. Deer drop in their tracks... until they don't. It's the Jekyll and Hyde behavior of this bullet - not only by me but others - that made me switch. I don't need uncertainty.

Emrah

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Travis299 · Dec 12, 2017

CVA Accura MR shooting 2 pellets of T7 & 40/50 yard shot on a buck that went about 50 yards. The bullet is a 250 gr Barnes T-EZ and weighed 246 gr after recovery.

Long Range · Dec 12, 2017

I’m still looking for that bullet that gets 100 percent pass thru the shoulders from 25-150 yards with 50 cent piece size exit holes! I want a bullet to expand but I want a pass thru!! I’m going to the 300 xtp or the 300 gr Speer deep curl.

livetohunt228 · Dec 13, 2017

Re: RE: Re: TC Shockwaves bullet concern

Fort Valley Man said:
The Shockwave or the Hornady SST 250 grain is a good bullet. I have never lost a deer with that bullet, and normally they go down in their tracks unless I miss my mark. Shot placement is key to a fast recovery.

Fort Valley Man, I completely agree that shot placement is KEY for an ethical and fast recovery. We did recover both deer but like my post was about, just had very little blood while tracking. I'm new to this so was just curious what some of your opinions were in regards to that particular bullet. Thank you for the response!

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ronlaughlin · Dec 13, 2017

Re: RE: Re: TC Shockwaves bullet concern

livetohunt228 said:
.......I'm new to this so was just curious what some of your opinions were in regards to that particular bullet. Thank you for the response!

OK, here is my opinion........

In this forum, and now in this thread, one reads comments about this bullet that are positive, and comments that are negative. There are other bullets, for which i have never ever read a negative comment. For me it is simple; why would i want to use a bullet that has mixed reviews. when there are bullets available that only have positive reviews???

☺

phenix78_99 · Dec 13, 2017

Re: RE: Re: TC Shockwaves bullet concern

[/quote]
OK, here is my opinion........

In this forum, and now in this thread, one reads comments about this bullet that are positive, and comments that are negative. There are other bullets, for which i have never ever read a negative comment. For me it is simple; why would i want to use a bullet that has mixed reviews. when there are bullets available that only have positive reviews???

☺[/quote]

And all God's people said Amen. Sir, it was your testing that lead me to the Bloodline, and I am forever grateful. When I read your post of the bullets that performed at the lowest velocities, that's where I made my short list and went from there.

livetohunt228 · Dec 14, 2017

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: TC Shockwaves bullet concern

Is the bloodline a type of bullet? If so, who makes it and what grain can you get it in? I have a 50 caliber muzzleloader(CVA)and am looking for recommendations for a solid performing bullet. I shoot 100 grains(2 pellets)of 777. What grain bullet should I shoot? I was shooting the 250 grain in the Shockwaves which I've made up my mind that I'm not going to go with them again even though it did get the job done. Is 777 the best on the market? CVA actually recommends White Hots and the PowerBelt Aerotip bullet. Is this a good combination? Sorry if I sound clueless... It's because I am. Lol! Trying to figure out what bullet and powder/pellet combo to try. Looking for accuracy out to 100 yards shooting 100 grains of power/pellets and something that's going to hit hard and leave some decent blood. I understand it's all about shot placement to get all that. Any advice would be greatly helpful! Thanks!

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2701jim · Dec 14, 2017

It is hard to beat the Barnes TEZ 250 grain. This should shoot well with 100 gr of 777 in a CVA Optima. Use the smooth black Harvester sabots. Just my 2 cents.

livetohunt228 · Dec 14, 2017

Re: RE: Re: TC Shockwaves bullet concern

2701jim said:
It is hard to beat the Barnes TEZ 250 grain. This should shoot well with 100 gr of 777 in a CVA Optima. Use the smooth black Harvester sabots. Just my 2 cents.

2701jim, thanks for the response! I will definitely give these a look. I've heard them mentioned a few times now. What do you mean by use the smooth black harvester sabots? Is that the sleeve the bullet sits in? Like on the TC shockwaves I was using the bullet went into a yellow(not sure what they call it, lol) Sorry, I really am new to muzzleloading and am trying to figure everything out. Thanks again!

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TC Shockwaves bullet concern

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