what the heck happened?!?!?

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ohihunter2014

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So I got bored today and decided to go foul the bore on the muzzleloader so I made up 6 shots at 70gr weighed of blackhorn 209 and headed to the range and fired 4 primers to dry the oil and loaded my charge and fired and hit dead center bull. I knew this was wrong because my last group was 1'' left so I loaded #2 and fired and hit a little low, #3 hit 1.5'' left, #4 hit almost touching #3, #5 and #6 grouped about 1.5'' inches at 100yards so I set out to adjust the crosshairs to hit dead center. Below is where it gets funky.

I ran my little drill bit in the breech plug, nipple pick and loaded my charge and adjusted the crosshairs but I think Nikon goofed my scope up cause the windage is opposite of what it should be so I had to fire a few more until I remembered it was different so I load a charge and bullet and being a little POD at the scope and wasting supplies I nipple picked with a charge and realized it and put a primer in, cocked the hammer and click, bang, bang and hit the 3'' shoot n c. Now I am pretty sure that I had fire come through the trigger group when it fired and I had 2-3 primers that the primer was raised higher than the cup. Next 2 shots were all over the place so I figured it was due to the raised primers and too dirty bore so i ran one patch in the bore, loaded, fired and hit the shoot n c twice so I packed it up and left. The raised primers and hangfire concerned me. I also noticed what appears to be burn marks on the large piece of metal under the barrel/breech plug.

Now it was -16 so i left the scale at home and used my TC u view measure and set it at 100gr. Would this have anything to do with what happened above? I cant see poking the nipple pick in there causing a hangfire but who knows.
 
When shooting BH I dont mess with the bore at all. I know Ive cleaned the breechplug 2-3 times in a days shooting, never swabbed the bore reassembled and go. with both teflon and grease. I really dont mess with the flash hole either, outside of a primer or 2 to clear the oil after a fresh assemble. I just watch it for signs of erosion, and check the diameter on occasion. The flash channel carbon is the only thing I have to attend to. Some guys do swab, I choose not to with that powder. How many shots on the breechplug?
 
Squeeze said:
When shooting BH I dont mess with the bore at all. I know Ive cleaned the breechplug 2-3 times in a days shooting, never swabbed the bore reassembled and go. with both teflon and grease. I really dont mess with the flash hole either, outside of a primer or 2 to clear the oil after a fresh assemble. I just watch it for signs of erosion, and check the diameter on occasion. The flash channel carbon is the only thing I have to attend to. Some guys do swab, I choose not to with that powder. How many shots on the breechplug?
About 25 shots. Its a brand new plug I got maybe a month ago. I tried swabbing because groups started opening up after about 12 shots and it seemed to help a little bit. This guns odd where it hates any bullet combo with 777 pellets but does okay with 120gr mag pellets. When I use BH209 I need at least 4-5 shots until it starts holding a group but they seemed to fell off at 12 shots and a quick swab brought 4 shots together. I swear this gun hates me.
 
12-15 shots is about where carbon buildup starts to clog and affect accuracy requiring the drill cleaning of the flash channel. shooting BH most will end up attending the breechplug more often than the bore. Though it seems to be pretty common, Ive never had quite the frustrations between fouled and clean bore.
Hmm, what gun, sabot and bullet are you shooting?
 
Squeeze said:
12-15 shots is about where carbon buildup starts to clog and affect accuracy requiring the drill cleaning of the flash channel. shooting BH most will end up attending the breechplug more often than the bore. Though it seems to be pretty common, Ive never had quite the frustrations between fouled and clean bore.
Hmm, what gun, sabot and bullet are you shooting?
Cva optima v2 thumhole 50cal .452 300gr xtp black harvest smooth.
 
What primer are you using? I'm assuming you already have the Blackhorn Breech Plug?

Is your rifle headspaced correctly? Did you install the firing pin bushing kit from CVA?

Load just a primer firmly into the breech plug of your UNLOADED rifle, do not close the breech, point the barrel straight down, then take a straight edge and lay it across the breech end of the breech plug and primer. Does the primer sit flush, stand proud of the breech plug, or is there excessive headspace between the primer and your straight edge? Look closely, it may be only a few thousandths.

Next check your firing pin bushing in the standing breech. Is the bushing flush, stand proud, or is it recessed in relation to the standing breech?

If you have a set of feeler gauges, it can help determine excessive headspace. Does your breech plug contact the standing breech firmly, or is there excessive space between them?

If no feeler gauges, and you have a caliper or micrometer you can measure your unfired primer length. Take your UNLOADED rifle to a place where it is safe to fire just a primer. Measure the length of each primer before doing anything. Install your measured and recorded primer into the breech plug, then snap the barrel closed. Breech the barrel open and measure the length of your primer again. Is it the same length, or did the rifle crush it a few thousandths in length? If it is shorter, you can stop right there. How much shorter?

If the primer is the same length as when you started, the proceed to the next step. Place the primer back into the breech plug of the UNLOADED rifle, close the breech, point the rifle in a safe direction, and fire the primer only. Open the breech and remove the primer by only contacting the battery cup (rim). Pay close attention as to where the internal primer cup now sits in relation to the battery cup (rim). If the primer cup is proud of the battery cup, you have an excessive amount of headspace. Now carefully measure the length of the fired primer and record this new length.

Take the length of the fired primer, then subtract the length of it when in its unfired state, and you will have the exact amount of excess headspace.

Example: Federal 209A Primer.

Unfired length, 0.298".

Fired length, 0.303".

0.303" - 0.298" = 0.005" of excess headspace.

In a perfect world, we would have an interference fit of the primer in a tip-up (break open) rifle of about 0.003". This means that when you close your rifle on your unfired primer, that it "crushes" it 0.003" in overall length. Unfortunately we don't live in s perfect world. In manufacturing, they have tolerances, because it's nearly impossible to get everything exactly the same length (dimensions). Rifles, breech plugs, and 209 primers are no exception. So, if we want things as near perfect as we can get, sometimes it takes just a bit of work.

There are several ways you can remove your excess headspace. You can shim out your firing pin bushing, with the kit from CVA. They do not recommend shimming proud (beyond flush) of the standing breech. If your firing pin bushing is flush, then you can either shim the primer pocket, or install an appropriately sized o-ring in the primer pocket.

Primers vary in length from the same box. See Primer Length Chart Sticky at the top if this page. So we have to determine the average length of our desired primer, figure out the average excess headspace with those primers, then shim so that we have an average of 0.003" to a maximum of around 0.005" crush fit with static (hard) shims.

An o-ring gives a lot of leeway over a static shim, and several different length primers can be used. There are pros and cons to any of the methods listed above. The o-rings, depending on brand/material and size can last for 30 -60 shots in my testing before they need to be replaced. They only cost a few cents and can give you a whole range session of blowback free shooting. If you have the equipment to measure, then I would recommend shimming the firing pin bushing first, but if you don't the o-ring works well because you can crush an o-ring up to about 0.015" in most cases.

Didn't mean to write a book, but there may be others as well as you with blowback problems that might find some of this useful? Or confusing? :d'oh!:
 
It sounds like the touch hole in your BP is burned out check the size .
 
ohiohunter2017 said:
Busta said:
What primer are you using? I'm assuming you already have the Blackhorn Breech Plug?
Cci 209 mag, yep to the 209 breech plug.

Both good. How firm was your saboted bullet combination to load in your rifle?

What most people don't realize when using Blackhorn 209 for the first hunt season is what worked well in the mild temperatures before season, might not work so well during muzzleloader seasons when the temperatures can dip down below freezing, it in this case below 0º. Plastic sabots will expand and contract, extreme temperatures even more so. So those sabots In pre-season testing in say 60-70 degree temperatures might have been a perfect fit for your bore, but after some time aclimating themselves to a -12º range session or a few hours hunting in sub-freezing weather, not so much!

There is a learning curve to shooting Blackhorn 209 in all weather conditions. You need to figure out what the perfect load for your rifle is, in the temperatures you will be hunting in. This winter has been bitter cold so far, and earlier than usual, which happened to coincide with several States muzzleloader seasons. Now is the time to figure out the proven load for your rifle, not September and October like most do.

Keep your saboted bullets, powder, and loaded rifle out in the cold, before hunting or a range session. Keep everything acclimated to the temperatures you will be hunting in. Keep it locked in your vehicle trunk if legal, in a locked cabinet in your unheated garage if possible. Do not take everything from your heated house/vehicle directly to the range or load your rifle with warm components. Everything needs to be the same temperature, and it takes a few hours to acclimate.

Your sabots probably started out warm, and the longer your range session took, were cooling down to ambient temp of -12º. That is an extreme contrast in temperatures from 70º F down to -12º F. Not only does plastic expand and contract in these extreme temperature changes, but it also changes the structural properties of the material. Even though the sabot of your choice may contract in the colder temperatures, it may load even harder due to the changes in its plyability.

So figure out your perfect load now, and I'm sure it will do just fine in the milder temps of Oct/Nov/Dec as well. Then you will not have to go through this learning curve again next January.

Good luck!
 
Lee 9 said:
It sounds like the touch hole in your BP is burned out check the size .

He said it was new and only had around 25 shots on it somewhere?

I just hope he used the one time tool to mate the plug to the rifle for the first time?

Pictures of the primers, breech plug, standing breech, inside of the receiver after firing would be most helpful in determining where the blowback problem is.
 
Squeeze is probably right on . That light load of Blackhorn 209 is causing your flash channel to build carbon . I have been experiencing this with my lighter loads . Clean the flash channel and accuracy will come back.
 
QuinnTheEskimo said:
I wouldn’t consider 70 grains by weight with a 300 grain bullet a light load. I use 80 grains by volume w/250’s.

Neither would I consider 70 gr WEIGHT, 100 gr VOLUME with s300 gr bullet a light load. He also said that he drilled out the flame channel after shot #6.

I can go a whole 30-40 shot range session with the 5/16" diameter flame channel, before it needs to be drilled out. With the Blackhorn Breech Plugs 1/8" diameter flame channel, every 12-15 shots will keep things rolling along.

I think he's more worried about the hang-fire situation right now, and I'm betting it's a headspace or sabot issue, compounded by extremely cold temperatures. I tested the limits of this powder back in 2008-2009 extensively in around 15 different rifles with around 50 different breech plugs, using at least 15 different primers, and endless saboted and bore riding bullet combinations. Either he is losing pressure around the primer, around the sabot, or both. You can't cheat the cold temperatures like you can the rest of the year. It will bite you, simple as that!

At least he found this out before he was dropping the hammer on a live animal, and possibly wounded it from a hang-fire or a misplaced shot. There are several hunting in the bitter cold temps that don't even realize that their pet load they perfected in October, might either be a hang-fire or a misfire in December or January.
 
Busta said:
QuinnTheEskimo said:
I wouldn’t consider 70 grains by weight with a 300 grain bullet a light load. I use 80 grains by volume w/250’s.

Neither would I consider 70 gr WEIGHT, 100 gr VOLUME with s300 gr bullet a light load. He also said that he drilled out the flame channel after shot #6.

I can go a whole 30-40 shot range session with the 5/16" diameter flame channel, before it needs to be drilled out. With the Blackhorn Breech Plugs 1/8" diameter flame channel, every 12-15 shots will keep things rolling along.

I think he's more worried about the hang-fire situation right now, and I'm betting it's a headspace or sabot issue, compounded by extremely cold temperatures. I tested the limits of this powder back in 2008-2009 extensively in around 15 different rifles with around 50 different breech plugs, using at least 15 different primers, and endless saboted and bore riding bullet combinations. Either he is losing pressure around the primer, around the sabot, or both. You can't cheat the cold temperatures like you can the rest of the year. It will bite you, simple as that!

At least he found this out before he was dropping the hammer on a live animal, and possibly wounded it from a hang-fire or a misplaced shot. There are several hunting in the bitter cold temps that don't even realize that their pet load they perfected in October, might either be a hang-fire or a misfire in December or January.

didn't drill it out I just turned the drill but by hand like they say to do for carbon cleanup.
 
Busta said:
Lee 9 said:
It sounds like the touch hole in your BP is burned out check the size .

He said it was new and only had around 25 shots on it somewhere?

I just hope he used the one time tool to mate the plug to the rifle for the first time?

Pictures of the primers, breech plug, standing breech, inside of the receiver after firing would be most helpful in determining where the blowback problem is.
I did use the black wrench and tightened it down the first time. this time I just did finger tight.
 
I'm mostly a short range guy. I spend the most time at the 100 yard range, and most of my hunting is half that. My main charge is 100 grn V loads with a 300 grn for my sabot guns. I don't use the max charges as much as some here, I never paid it much thought till this thread, But I think there's something to that more carbon buildup from a lighter charge. A factory knight bare primer plug will almost clog solid in about 20 shots. I know it wouldn't go 30-40 for me. Those ~140 charges must work cleaner somehow. Ive seen videos of the recoil you guys absorb :D Must just knock the crap out of the BP too

(edit, I see 5/16 flashole size, maybe thats it, I use a 5/32 drill bit on a Knight plug)
 
(edit, I see 5/16 flashole size, maybe thats it, I use a 5/32 drill bit on a Knight plug)

The flame channel cannot be 5/16". If it were the primer would not have a ledge to seat on, because the primer body is less than ¼" diameter.

TC flame channels are 1/8", as are the Blackhorn CVA plugs. Newer Knight plugs have a 5/32" flame channel. Standard CVA plugs have a 3mm flame channel.
 
ohiohunter2017 said:
I ran my little drill bit in the breech plug, nipple pick and loaded my charge and adjusted the crosshairs but I think Nikon goofed my scope up cause the windage is opposite of what it should be so I had to fire a few more until I remembered it was different so I load a charge and bullet and being a little POD at the scope and wasting supplies I nipple picked with a charge and realized it and put a primer in, cocked the hammer and click, bang, bang and hit the 3'' shoot n c. Now I am pretty sure that I had fire come through the trigger group when it fired and I had 2-3 primers that the primer was raised higher than the cup. .

ohiohunter,

What are you using for a Nipple pick? Are you using something to try to "Clean" out the Flash hole after scraping the Flash channel?

If so I am wondering if you pushed a piece of carbon into the Flash hole with this "Nipple Pick". Did the Tip of the Nipple pick break off?

I personally don't bother scraping the Flash channel while I am shooting at the range till I remove the Breech plug and Rarely ever use anything metal in the Flash Hole. Cleaning with a solvent or even blowing it out with some carb cleaner is about all I ever do to the Flash Hole.
 
ShawnT said:
ohiohunter2017 said:
I ran my little drill bit in the breech plug, nipple pick and loaded my charge and adjusted the crosshairs but I think Nikon goofed my scope up cause the windage is opposite of what it should be so I had to fire a few more until I remembered it was different so I load a charge and bullet and being a little POD at the scope and wasting supplies I nipple picked with a charge and realized it and put a primer in, cocked the hammer and click, bang, bang and hit the 3'' shoot n c. Now I am pretty sure that I had fire come through the trigger group when it fired and I had 2-3 primers that the primer was raised higher than the cup. .

ohiohunter,

What are you using for a Nipple pick? Are you using something to try to "Clean" out the Flash hole after scraping the Flash channel?

If so I am wondering if you pushed a piece of carbon into the Flash hole with this "Nipple Pick". Did the Tip of the Nipple pick break off?

I personally don't bother scraping the Flash channel while I am shooting at the range till I remove the Breech plug and Rarely ever use anything metal in the Flash Hole. Cleaning with a solvent or even blowing it out with some carb cleaner is about all I ever do to the Flash Hole.
I'm using the little TC nipple pick. https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/accessor ... -7244.html

I just put the 1/8 drill bit in there and give it about 5-6 turns with my hand and then poke the nipple pick in there to clear the little pin hole. I cant remember if I nipple picked first or drill bit first but I felt something hit my trigger finger when it hang fired. I fired 5 more shots afterwards and the primer that hang fired was raised up about 5-10k and kind of had some flow to it to one side and the others were raised also. I noticed I have some brown soot on the barrel just in front of where the breach plug flushes to the barrel and the firing pin area and the block that is under the breech plug and sits in the receiver looks burned also.
 

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