Is there such a bullet

WPrather · Jan 18, 2018

I didn’t check the muzzel velocity so I couldn’t tell you for sure. But it was out of a 28in Prohunter so I’m guessing between 2150-2200fps.

I usually shoot all my Center fires thru a chrono to check how close my reloads are to the book. But I don’t ever remember shooting one of my muzzeloaders thru it.

GM54-120 · Jan 18, 2018

Big6x6 shot the Shockwave 250gr which is rated the same as the SST (.210 BC) at around 2100fps through the chronies but only out to 100 yards. Actual BC for him was .197 using a 3 shot average.

As far as the original topic is very hard to beat a Parker 275gr BE or a big chunk of lead. The Parkers only real shortcoming is its a bit fragile at high speed impacts on bone. They get very messy and destroy a lot of meat. In the boiler room though the BE performs beautifully the vast majority of the time.

Another bullet i love is the Barnes 300gr 458 SOCOM but it can be a real bear to get it to shoot since its a boat tail and a .458. For some bizarre reason my 54cal will shoot them great in a Harvester 54x45 sabot and a max load of BH209.

For me this is the only thing i really care about. Deer dont go too far when your bullet does this. That SOCOM is a wrecking ball. Top heart was hit with a 50-300gr FTX. Bottom is the Barnes SOCOM.

WV Hunter · Jan 18, 2018

Man GM... your deer have 2 hearts? You hunting 3 mile island? :lol: :lol:

oke:

I like when they look like that. My last doe this year looked similar, from a 250 bloodline. :yeah:

52Bore · Jan 18, 2018

hawki said:
52, I don't have the background that you do as far as the care and feeding of muzzle loaders with heavy bullets. They drop much less than what I had thought, according to that chart. As I said I have very limited experience with them. I do have experience with the .40/200 gr. load. That chart doesn't reflect my range notes.

No problem. I just knew my heavy conicals 530gr at 3" high would be nearly on at 150.. That's why I used your 150 as a ZERO - then compared the others projectiles.
I think we all know within 150 yards anything will work on a animal, we are barley past RB range.. At 200, things start go arrant as one's nice cloverleaf group at 100 is now long gone. 250 & 300 the group may well look like a shotgun pattern.. How many practice at 200-300? I'll assume -few, even fewer off a full rest.
Practice, practice, practice and you're knowledge and confidence will be worth it..
Keep that 40 smoken..

52Bore · Jan 18, 2018

I looked at some of Ron's test again.. at some of the bullets referenced previously.
Here's the Barnes 250gr TEZ previously shown with it beautiful expansion (that I initially thought of and posted) - but pitiful performance in Ron's test.

Here's the 40 cal 200gr Bloodline that failed..

Ron's writeup.

52Bore · Jan 18, 2018

I like the looks and performance of these..
Nice big HP.

Note that the pedals were found in the 2nd jug and the base in the 4th.

52Bore · Jan 18, 2018

I like the looks and performance of this one..

Note this one was found in the 3rd jug.

52Bore · Jan 18, 2018

Ed's pure lead HP has expanded to a surface area of 1"+. Have to wonder the surface area of a fracturing bullet, the pedals are small and travel 1 bottle after separating, the base looks to be that of a .45 RB continues (.45 = 0.15 sq in vs 1" = .78 sq in). Hard to compare the buzz words of Terminal vs Hydrostatic performances.. There is no doubt, they both do their job at this reduced velocity..
I've stated this before to the guys at Friendship, someone needs to play with a 400gr+/- HP bullet. That's the missing weight and velocity range between the 500gr Conicals/Black Powder & 275-300gr Parker/BH209 loads, that I referenced in a previous post.. The weight/momentum will allow penetration, HP to expand - the only variable, will it shoot?
Maybe we're slowly getting there...

52Bore · Jan 18, 2018

One added note I've learned, below is some info I had prior to changing to a 150 zero in a previous post.
If I were shooting a 50 1:28 in sabot and liked a 100yd zero due to my hunting conditions - a 250gr bullet would be my last choice.
Here's why.

sabotloader · Jan 18, 2018

52Bore said:
I looked at some of Ron's test again.. at some of the bullets referenced previously.
Here's the Barnes 250gr TEZ previously shown with it beautiful expansion (that I initially thought of and posted) - but pitiful performance in Ron's test.
Ron 250 TEZ full.jpg

Here's the 40 cal 200gr Bloodline that failed..
Ron 40 200 tip full.jpg
Ron's writeup.
Ron 40 200 tip L .jpg

The tipped Bloodline was a test bullet and should not be confused with the 40x200CF-HP which is an outstanding bullet.

The tipped bullets never made it out of the testing phase...

BuckDoeHunter · Jan 19, 2018

52Bore said:
I looked at some of Ron's test again.. at some of the bullets referenced previously.
Here's the Barnes 250gr TEZ previously shown with it beautiful expansion (that I initially thought of and posted) - but pitiful performance in Ron's test.
Ron 250 TEZ full.jpg

Yes, I am defending the 250gr TEZ, one of my favorite muzzleloader bullets. The 50gr test didn't produce an expanded bullet but the 80gr test did just to clarify.

My family and I have shot many many deer with the 250gr TMZ/TEZ and no failures that I am aware of, some deer shot produced excellent blood trails and some didn't have a drop, all due to shot placement. My youngest son harvested a nice doe a few years ago with a youth load and I know that bullet was traveling at approx. the same speed as the 50gr test bullet. The recovered 250gr bullet expanded nicely.

I do enjoy Ron's tests and will keep sending him bullets if he allows me too, but the 50gr Barnes 250 TEZ test is the one I disagree with from my own real-world experience.

WV Hunter · Jan 19, 2018

52Bore said:
Ed's pure lead HP has expanded to a surface area of 1"+. Have to wonder the surface area of a fracturing bullet, the pedals are small and travel 1 bottle after separating, the base looks to be that of a .45 RB continues (.45 = 0.15 sq in vs 1" = .78 sq in). Hard to compare the buzz words of Terminal vs Hydrostatic performances.. There is no doubt, they both do their job at this reduced velocity..
I've stated this before to the guys at Friendship, someone needs to play with a 400gr+/- HP bullet. That's the missing weight and velocity range between the 500gr Conicals/Black Powder & 275-300gr Parker/BH209 loads, that I referenced in a previous post.. The weight/momentum will allow penetration, HP to expand - the only variable, will it shoot?
Maybe we're slowly getting there...

52, here is a pic of one of my deer this yr taken with the 250 lehigh/bloodline. All the petals exited, along with the core. She didn't last long, stumbled downhill about 30yds. Granted, it was only about 60yd shot, not 150 or 200....but I would expect similar results out that far, just due to the design. Very impressed with the performance on two deer this year. And I have shot them with all lead as well... they work excellent too! That 1" swath they cut does some damage for sure! :yeah:

I remember somewhere seeing a video of how the bloodlines work, and how they create massive shock due to the design. Not sure where it was.

ENCORE50A · Jan 19, 2018

52Bore said:
I looked at some of Ron's test again.. at some of the bullets referenced previously.
Here's the Barnes 250gr TEZ previously shown with it beautiful expansion (that I initially thought of and posted) - but pitiful performance in Ron's test.
Ron 250 TEZ full.jpg

Here's a couple Barnes 250gr bullets that were shot into REAL LIVE whitetails and recovered showing their beautiful expansion. These tests however were performed with double the charge indicated in Ron's testing, but also at over 4 times the distance used in Ron's testing.

Now again, I'm in no way bashing Ron's testing of bullets, and applaud him for his time, effort and expense.

Real world testing on live animals however, indicates much different results. Same results as another poster showed.

https://s19.postimg.org/tuwezjd03/100_4240.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/r0t9m3343/100_4243.jpg

https://s19.postimg.org/h3i8t0nsj/Perfect_TMZ.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-xOHEKLobQ

ENCORE50A · Jan 19, 2018

An old test with different bullets, all shot with the same charge at a range of 100yds, through the same materials.

Notice the 250gr Shockwave...... Four different bullets, with two of them failing and two of them performing. It "appears" that the 250gr Shockwave works perfectly 50% of the time and fails the other 50% of the time according to this test.
Had one or both of the failures been the only bullets looked at, one would most likely consider the bullet a complete failure and worthless.

Two Barnes Expanders functioned as designed.

The XTP worked.

https://s19.postimg.org/ro5yh3jnn/Shock ... base_2.jpg

ronlaughlin · Jan 19, 2018

ENCORE50A said:
........Real world testing on live animals however, indicates much different results.........

Not really..........

The photo shows the same bullet shot through the same test, but instead, with a charge of 80 grain Blackhorn, not the 50 grain used in the failed test.

Excellent performance is it not? To allow the bullet to work, one only needs to ensure the bullet has enough speed at impact.

The bullet that failed to open was traveling about 1200 fps. The powder charge for the above calculation was 100 grain Blackhorn; the speed taken from Western Powders website. Note the calculation say the bullet won't slow to 1200 fps until it reaches around 225 yard. To ensure the bullet will work at ranges out to 200 yard, one could use a charge of 105 grain or more of Blackhorn, and be totally confident. :mrgreen:

ENCORE50A · Jan 19, 2018

ronlaughlin said:
ENCORE50A said:

........Real world testing on live animals however, indicates much different results.........

Click to expand...

Not really..........

The photo shows the same bullet shot through the same test, but instead, with a charge of 80 grain Blackhorn, not the 50 grain used in the failed test.

Excellent performance is it not? To allow the bullet to work, one only needs to ensure the bullet has enough speed at impact.

The bullet that failed to open was traveling about 1200 fps. The powder charge for the above calculation was 100 grain Blackhorn; the speed taken from Western Powders website. Note the calculation say the bullet won't slow to 1200 fps until it reaches around 225 yard. To ensure the bullet will work at ranges out to 200 yard, one could use a charge of 105 grain or more of Blackhorn, and be totally confident. :mrgreen:

Beautiful :yeah:

long shot · Jan 19, 2018

I must get me an ult , one heck of a rifle.

ENCORE50A · Jan 19, 2018

45cal said:
I must get me an ult , one heck of a rifle.

All the bullets I've shown, were shot from a TC Encore Pro Hunter. But you are right about the Ult...

sabotloader · Jan 19, 2018

Encore... just need to chime in a little bit so you are not feeling like you are out on the limb by yourself.

I agree with you on your points about Ron's testing. He has spent a ton of time and money providing the test results that he sees and achieves. The information is a great source of comparison using the same repeated measures. It does serve to show the results of various bullets and allows us to make our own individual comparisons.

But, like you these are not real world testing in hunting conditions. Even jell testing as informative as it can be is not real world. Shooting an animal can provide a completely different set of information and results. Even then shooting the same animal more show different results. There are so many things that can sway the results. Wet hide/dry hide - Muddy hide/clean hide - Thick hide/thin hide - Viscosity of the shot location - even the density of the blood/organs versus Ron's water - I mean you could go on and on about the differences of real world and shooting a fixed carpet/board and bottled water. STILL and MOST importantly Ron's testing does provide a launching platform to performance.

And as someone has recently pointed out Ballistic tables are just that a table providing expected results - yet most of us know while they may be close that are not the absolute truth. Ron's tests and Ballistic tables are a great guidelines but things do change in the real world shooting and hunting conditions.

ENCORE50A · Jan 19, 2018

sabotloader said:
Encore... just need to chime in a little bit so you are not feeling like you are out on the limb by yourself.

I agree with you on your points about Ron's testing. He has spent a ton of time and money providing the test results that he sees and achieves. The information is a great source of comparison using the same repeated measures. It does serve to show the results of various bullets and allows us to make our own individual comparisons.

But, like you these are not real world testing in hunting conditions. Even jell testing as informative as it can be is not real world. Shooting an animal can provide a completely different set of information and results. Even then shooting the same animal more show different results. There are so many things that can sway the results. Wet hide/dry hide - Muddy hide/clean hide - Thick hide/thin hide - Viscosity of the shot location - even the density of the blood/organs versus Ron's water - I mean you could go on and on about the differences of real world and shooting a fixed carpet/board and bottled water. STILL and MOST importantly Ron's testing does provide a launching platform to performance.

And as someone has recently pointed out Ballistic tables are just that a table providing expected results - yet most of us know while they may be close that are not the absolute truth. Ron's tests and Ballistic tables are a great guidelines but things do change in the real world shooting and hunting conditions.

Thank you.

This is why in my second posting on the subject I used a Ballistician's quote concerning bullet testing.

Is there such a bullet

Help Support Modern Muzzleloading Forum:

Well-Known Member

Administrator

Supporter

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Attachments

Well-Known Member

Attachments

Well-Known Member

Attachments

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Attachments

Keep Shooting Muzzleloaders - They are a Blast

Supporter

Supporter

Attachments

Long Range Shooter

Long Range Shooter

Supporter

Long Range Shooter

Well-Known Member

Long Range Shooter

Keep Shooting Muzzleloaders - They are a Blast

Long Range Shooter

Similar threads

Join the conversation!

Join today and get all the highlights of this community direct to your inbox. It's FREE!