Is there such a bullet

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Don't forget ballistics, and mathematics landed men safely on the moon. Mathematics, and physics allowed engineers to develop lasers, smartphones, safer cars etc..............

Not one person on this forum believes that a carpet sample, a piece of 3/8" plywood, and some water jugs is the same as a deer, or a rutting bull elk, or whatever...............do they?

It should be noted that the tests all occurred in the real world. The data was collected in the real world. The data was shared as is, in the real world. All bullets endured the same conditions. No bullet was favored. The results are the real world results. Opinions were intentionally held to a minimum; hopefully zero.

One thing i have found interesting, is every time a tested bullet was recovered from an animal, and compared to the same bullet recovered from the 'trap', they were the same. The trap, and the animal did the same thing to the bullet...ironic is it not? ☺
 
ronlaughlin said:
Don't forget ballistics, and mathematics landed men safely on the moon. Mathematics, and physics allowed engineers to develop lasers, smartphones, safer cars etc..............

Not one person on this forum believes that a carpet sample, a piece of 3/8" plywood, and some water jugs is the same as a deer, or a rutting bull elk, or whatever...............do they?

It should be noted that the tests all occurred in the real world. The data was collected in the real world. The data was shared as is, in the real world. All bullets endured the same conditions. No bullet was favored. The results are the real world results. Opinions were intentionally held to a minimum; hopefully zero.


One thing i have found interesting, is every time a tested bullet was recovered from an animal, and compared to the same bullet recovered from the 'trap', they were the same. The trap, and the animal did the same thing to the bullet...ironic is it not? ☺

Ron you are correct they, your tests, occured in the real world - grant you that. But there are not a lot of hunters out in hunting conditions hunting a carpeted board and bottles of water @ 25 yards.

I thank you for your time and ability to do these tests for everyone, and that includes myself. They provide a valid comparison of various bullets under a controlled/repeatable shooting environment. But no matter how you try to spin it - it is not the same thing as you might experiance when hunting in the real world environment.
 
sabotloader said:
............... But no matter how you try to spin it - it is not the same thing as you might experiance when hunting in the real world environment.
Umm, i am not trying to spin anything; just stating the facts. Actually, how can it be a good thing killing living breathing animals, just to test a bullet. To me, it seems far better to shoot animals with bullets that are already tested, and found to be reliable.

This test is not only good, it is near perfect for comparing bullets. Think of it..... shooters living anywhere in the United States can get a carpet sample, a piece of 3/8" plywood, some dollar store jugs, and do the test themselves. These tests done under the same conditions with the same parameters would allow shooters to compare any bullet, any person tested, anywhere in the country. Wow!! Tests like this should be encouraged, not discouraged, because they don't result in the death of a living breathing animal happily living it's life in the wild i.e. your real world.

By the way, it is surprising a moderator would hijack a member's thread.
 
I think it is time to close this thread as always someone turns the thread to win a argument. Facts are Facts and if ballistics Lie , then we would never have went to space. I really see no use in discussing it anymore. Sorry , but I believe Ron proved what bullets work in real world or not. Thanks Ron
 
52 I went back and re read my range notes on that .40/ 200 grainer at 2275. Either my chrony needs to be recalculated or the BC of those Shockwaves is way lower than what is advertised. My actual real world data is +3 @ 100, 0/150, -5.5@200. That's quite a difference from your chart. I wish that it shot that flat. Altitude is about 1200 feet and my range time temp has been in the 20s-30s. I don't think either one of those will have that great of effect at that range. Could you recheck your data? Little things like this discrepancy in tables verses hard data bug me, loose ends, not nice and neat.Thanks in advance!
 
Just want to thank Ron for the tests . I can't even imagine the amount of time he has spent . It would be hard to shoot that many deer for real world testing . His test results are very helpful and informational . There is no such thing as a perfect test . Thank you very much Ron for all the time you have spent to give us all this info !
 
Not sure why folks are getting there panties in a twist over this. Like minded folks discussing things that are of interest to us. I LOVE Ron's bullet tests they are probably one of my favorite things about this site. I couldn't tell you how many times I've looked over them. Ron I don't think anyone has disparaged your tests, I might be wrong but that is how I read it. Anywho I'm not a ballistision or mathematical wizard just a hillbilly who likes BP guns and I wouldn't have thought your bullet test would have preformed exactly the same on animals. And I don't think anyone is saying we should be doing bullet TESTING on live animals. That's my thoughts and thanks Ron keep it up.
 
Haha, people hate when the credibility of their favorites are questioned. Everyone has a favorite, I have a few, and some of them have evolved to something new. I can attribute that in large part, to this forum, with Rons testing and reports in the forefront. As usual, there's more than one way to get the job done.
 
Has anybody done any hunting or testing with the Hornady 250gr Monoflex bullets?

The mushroom on Hornady’s site looks a lot like the Barnes Bullets. It’s not quite as big and I’m hoping for a pass thru on even quartering shots. If it will work like the picture on there site it should work great for me.
 
Bullets like the Monoflex and FTX work best with bullet speed. I use 80-90 grains on average and stick with what works best at less speeds.... XTPs, copper-clad HP Powerbelts and good ol' pure lead bullets.... thanks to people like Canada's Cecil Epp and C Choo out in Cheyenne. Can't remember if it's Utah or Wyoming where he lives.....lol :nono:

If using Blackhorn, shoot those Monoflex with above +100 gr volume or above +70 weighted, for best expansion results.
 
A few years ago i shot a coyote with the monoflex bullet, and it worked very very well. To me, it seems worth hunting with. At least i know it sure kills coyotes.

The monoflex has also been captured twice in the standard trap of carpet sample, 3/8" plywood, and dollar store jugs.

The first photo shows the monoflex when the powder charge was 50 grain Blackhorn, the second photo shows the bullet when pushed by 80 grain Blackhorn.




IMG_0965.JPG


IMG_0507.JPG





50 grain capture

80 grain capture


A lot of bullets don't work when the powder charge is only 50 grain Blackhorn. The monoflex worked good in this test. The bullet was deadly on a coyote trying to make a living in the real world. The lung shot coyote dropped right now, and died right there; no running involved.
 
That looks good to me and my Prohunter likes those sabots so that’s even better. I had them in my gun this year but didn’t get a chance to try them. Are season is a alternative season and I kept switching back and forth between my muzzeloader and a pistol. I never seen a deer while carrying the muzzeloader. But I did get to test a 240gr xtp in a 44mag SRH and a 180gr xtp in a 357 Maximum Tc Contender.lol
 
ENCORE50A said:
52Bore said:
I looked at some of Ron's test again.. at some of the bullets referenced previously.
Here's the Barnes 250gr TEZ previously shown with it beautiful expansion (that I initially thought of and posted) - but pitiful performance in Ron's test.
Ron 250 TEZ full.jpg

Here's a couple Barnes 250gr bullets that were shot into REAL LIVE whitetails and recovered showing their beautiful expansion. These tests however were performed with double the charge indicated in Ron's testing, but also at over 4 times the distance used in Ron's testing.

"...double the powder charge.." = 100gr.
"...over 4 times the distance..." = 100 yards
Ron's test is 50gr BH209 at 25yards.
No doubt it would perform.
 
hawki said:
52 I went back and re read my range notes on that .40/ 200 grainer at 2275. Either my chrony needs to be recalculated or the BC of those Shockwaves is way lower than what is advertised. My actual real world data is +3 @ 100, 0/150, -5.5@200. That's quite a difference from your chart. I wish that it shot that flat. Altitude is about 1200 feet and my range time temp has been in the 20s-30s. I don't think either one of those will have that great of effect at that range. Could you recheck your data? Little things like this discrepancy in tables verses hard data bug me, loose ends, not nice and neat.Thanks in advance!
Yep, I typed the wrong info on your 40. Sorry.
Here's that data where I ran your 150 zero.

Looks like I chose the Drop (MOA) instead of inches past 150. I think you'll agree more on the -4.3"

If your 3" high at 100. Here's the data.. More like a 185 yd zero. Just an FYI, BH209 MV data for a 200gr is 2200 vs your 2275. I did run 2200 too and the difference at 200 is 0.4". Also, you can see the temp and elevatoin. I change to your 25 degrees and 1200 ft and the effects within 200 are negligible.


Here's all the data compiled along with a 400gr I found on the BH209 cartridge data - again a reduced load on these conicals.
I also went back thru the others to make sure I didn't do the same with them..

I like your previous trajectory as now, unfortunately its closer to the rest of the group.
 

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To Rons test. I agree they are simple, un-bias and consistent.

The OP was about accuracy at various range, penetration and expansion.
If a bullet FAIL on Ron's expansion test - it is not known at what velocity it stops performing? Maybe 1300fps, 1400fps or so on. Therefor there are better choices - because they PASS, many with beautiful results.

Remember too in Ron's test, a 250gr bullet is around 1200fps, but a heavier bullet isn't traveling as fast with his same 50gr charge. My 50 cal 475gr HP was traveling at 950 fps.
 

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52Bore said:
Ed's pure lead HP has expanded to a surface area of 1"+. Have to wonder the surface area of a fracturing bullet, the pedals are small and travel 1 bottle after separating, the base looks to be that of a .45 RB continues (.45 = 0.15 sq in vs 1" = .78 sq in). Hard to compare the buzz words of Terminal vs Hydrostatic performances.. There is no doubt, they both do their job at this reduced velocity..
I've stated this before to the guys at Friendship, someone needs to play with a 400gr+/- HP bullet. That's the missing weight and velocity range between the 500gr Conicals/Black Powder & 275-300gr Parker/BH209 loads, that I referenced in a previous post.. The weight/momentum will allow penetration, HP to expand - the only variable, will it shoot?
Maybe we're slowly getting there...

Ive kinda felt the same way too.

Dan at Bullshop does offer a 45cal in the 405-415gr range with a HP. I would need to dig back through my old emails but they were under $50/100 and IIRC that was with shipping.
 
GM54-120 said:
52Bore said:
Ed's pure lead HP has expanded to a surface area of 1"+. Have to wonder the surface area of a fracturing bullet, the pedals are small and travel 1 bottle after separating, the base looks to be that of a .45 RB continues (.45 = 0.15 sq in vs 1" = .78 sq in). Hard to compare the buzz words of Terminal vs Hydrostatic performances.. There is no doubt, they both do their job at this reduced velocity..
I've stated this before to the guys at Friendship, someone needs to play with a 400gr+/- HP bullet. That's the missing weight and velocity range between the 500gr Conicals/Black Powder & 275-300gr Parker/BH209 loads, that I referenced in a previous post.. The weight/momentum will allow penetration, HP to expand - the only variable, will it shoot?
Maybe we're slowly getting there...

Ive kinda felt the same way too.

Dan at Bullshop does offer a 45cal in the 405-415gr range with a HP. I would need to dig back through my old emails but they were under $50/100 and IIRC that was with shipping.

And it is my feeling and experience, that if Dan builds it and offeres it - it will fly!

bullshop_Bullets.jpg
 
Under 45cal bullets on Dans site its listed as:

45 Caliber ~ Lee Moulds ~ .457 ~ 405 grains ~ HP

Now that is not in pure lead so the weight will be close to 415gr.

The mold should be 457-405-HP, Part# Lee 90491 and it has not been made in 10+ years.
6YtrwnN.jpg
 
Not sure about pushing a GG at 1800fps.
Not sure how I forgot about my first bullet for my first in-line, that I was given.
This would have been the year before the 1st in-line Matches at Friendship. Shot a 6pt at 130 yards, double lung pass thru.
Don't recall the charge, but I'd guess 85gr Swiss.
45cal also shot this in his Redemption in the 1st & 2nd in-line matches - he placed 2nd behind Jim S. in year 2. He also shot it well at the Mini-Creedmoor at 500yds.


HP is 3/16", tapered 3/4" deep. Sold the mold to Dan Thomas at Friendship.
I recall shooting testing/comparing pure lead vs WW and on paper at 100 - I could not tell a difference in accuracy.
I ended up shooting a 500gr PP out of the Pro-Hunter in the 1st & 2nd in-line matches (then we learned Knight used to make 45 1:20's and haven't looked back on a 50).

If one could get some accuracy out of a 400gr projectile, it has the weight to maintain for LR - It might be interesting...
The numbers at 1800fps look very good..
 

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