Traditions Breech Plug Alteration

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OHsmokepole

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Howdy Folks,
I'm new to the forum so forgive me if I'm not breaking new ground. I've got Knights, CVA's, and Traditions, guns so I'm not particularly biased about brands. I've got a cheap, but very accurate Traditions Evolution with a very sweet trigger pull that I bought for nearly nothing. The problem is that it's a filthy nightmare and I hate it. It's my belief that a new BH209 breech plug would solve my problem, as well as every other person with this particular firearm. I searched but didn't see a close match for my thoughts. I'm in search of a willing machinist to bless or condemn my idea, so here it is... I happened to figure out just by goofing with it that if you turn a red Knight primer disk upside down and load the primer in the back instead of the front of the disk it would be loadable and easily removable on a Traditions musket cap breech plug. Fits like a glove... The issue is that with the added length of the disk, it's a good bit too long for the bolt to close. The only way I see to make it functional is by altering an existing or making a new breech plug to allow the disk utilization (shortened in the area closest to the bolt). I'm not sure Traditions or Knight would like my idea, but I do know that I've got a $100 dollar gun that shoots like a much more expensive counterpart. If a skilled machinist could come up with a decent breech plug for this rifle and make it BH209 capable, I'd be inclined to use it a lot more. If anybody has thoughts or comments, or recommendations, let me know and thanks for your time!
 
OHsmokepole said:
Howdy Folks,
I'm new to the forum so forgive me if I'm not breaking new ground. I've got Knights, CVA's, and Traditions, guns so I'm not particularly biased about brands. I've got a cheap, but very accurate Traditions Evolution with a very sweet trigger pull that I bought for nearly nothing. The problem is that it's a filthy nightmare and I hate it. It's my belief that a new BH209 breech plug would solve my problem, as well as every other person with this particular firearm. I searched but didn't see a close match for my thoughts. I'm in search of a willing machinist to bless or condemn my idea, so here it is... I happened to figure out just by goofing with it that if you turn a red Knight primer disk upside down and load the primer in the back instead of the front of the disk it would be loadable and easily removable on a Traditions musket cap breech plug. Fits like a glove... The issue is that with the added length of the disk, it's a good bit too long for the bolt to close. The only way I see to make it functional is by altering an existing or making a new breech plug to allow the disk utilization (shortened in the area closest to the bolt). I'm not sure Traditions or Knight would like my idea, but I do know that I've got a $100 dollar gun that shoots like a much more expensive counterpart. If a skilled machinist could come up with a decent breech plug for this rifle and make it BH209 capable, I'd be inclined to use it a lot more. If anybody has thoughts or comments, or recommendations, let me know and thanks for your time!

Thank you for the post - I did not even realize that Traditions made this rifle. My first look at it really intriques me.

image254108-f6a257dfe91db04dc0befa2ce257e5c1.jpg


That really is a good looking rifle and has the versatility to fit many hunting options...

Again not being up to speed onTraditions which 209 breech plug does the rifle use? Is this the BP that is in your rifle? If this is the correct plug It might be hard to make it clean because it does not seem to closed (the primer is not completely enclosed.

th


The next important thing would be the face of the bolt or the hammer assembly. The picture of the bolt assembly that I see shows a hammer assembly... While the rifle has a bolt the hammer appears to be a plunger style hammer - in that the hammer can be blow back by back pressure. This is a picture I found that might be like your bolt assembly

traditions-evolution-muzzleloader-inline-50cal-firing-pin.jpg


With the type of BP and the the bolt - it would/will be difficult to achieve a clean shooting breech area. In fact Western Powders suggest that shooting BH 209 from this rifle should not be attempted. Now if what I have pictured is not what your rifle has that could change the outlook.

I really would be curious as to what you find...
 
Howdy OHsmokepole,

First off, Welcome to the Forum!

Some of the problems with some rifles don't fully come down to just a "New/updated" Breech plug, to get BH 209 to ignite consistently. Some of the issues have been found to be caused by head-space issues that exist between the Breech plug, the primer, and the bolt. BH 209 will generate more back pressure that can cause the primer to back out of the primer pocket some or just plain not create a good seal between the primer and the bottom of the breech plug primer pocket, and Maintain that seal while the powder is still burning. If the Bolt has the proper head-space it will push the primer all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket and slightly crush the primer to cause and maintain a good seal when you close the bolt. This crush fit will cause all of the primers heat and pressure to be directed though the Flash hole to the powder. IF the head-space is not causing the crush fit it May still ignite the powder but will allow blow-back to enter the action and soot things up. If the Primer is not sealed at all in the primer pocket you will get extremely inconsistent ignition. I a plunger action that back pressure can cause the plunger to move back and have the primer back out of the primer pocket.

So what does this mean. The Traditions Evolution/Thunderbolt series action is a hybrid in that it has a bolt with a Plunger inside of it. So even with a better breech plug you still have a plunger that can/will move back and possible still let blowback enter the action even if you get it to ignite BH. That action is a but better then the true plunger action because to still have a bolt to help limit anything blowing back out of the primer pocket, But it will not eliminate it. There really is not much more than the spring to stop it from blowing back the plunger some or even fully recocking it. The limited time I spent with one of those actions, I did not see that the Primer ever could be sealed to the bottom of the primer pocket since the bolt really don't press the primer in there. While a modified Plastic Jacket like your are looking at could possibly help seal the primer, I'm not sure it would give consistent ignition and don't see it preventing the Blowback.

From the time I spent with it, there were 2 things I saw that would make that rifle so much better. Make the Bolt a True bolt that has a Firing pin, and not a plunger, and make a good breech plug that will allow a crush fit on the primer between the bottom of the primer pocket and the bolt.
 
Thanks for the replies! The images sent are basically the same rifle and representative of what I'm talking about in terms of how nasty this action gets. As for the breech plug shown, it's the standard 209 with the retaining spring and blowback vent sliced into it. What I was specifically speaking about altering or fabricating would be a musket cap breech plug for the Knight read disks. It really is a nice gun built as cost-effectively(cheap) as possible. It is NOT built like a Knight, I know exactly by what you're speaking about relative to blowback pressure and even experience it with my Knight Wolverine. Pushing a 375 grain bullet with 110gr of BH in the wolverine has on more than one occasion recocked the plunger with blowback and blown the disk out of the action. I don't run it with more than 100gr BH or heavy bullets anymore for that reason. Fixed the issue immediately. If I'm not pushing the Wolverine hard, the disk doesn't come off of the nipple and it remains very clean. Basically no residue in the action. I realize with the bolt design for the Traditions is basically a plunger mechanism and thought about that issue, BUT, I simply hoped with reasonable loads that it might still be feasible and safe. I also think the tension fit of the disk might provide some potential for reducing the blowback. I'm happy to be the guinea pig rifle if I can get somebody with the skill to make it.
 
Re: Trad've itions Breech Plug Alteration

BuckDoeHunter said:
Any pictures?

I personally don't think the plastic discs will seal all that good, my knight disc elite had blowback I could feel on my face.

I've a Wolverine and I've had some blowback when pushing heavy stuff out if it. I've also had the issues of the primers coming apart as well, but I've found that if I use CCI Mag primers and keep the loads reasonable - under a 100 grains of BH and under 325 gr bullets that I don't have ANY blowback. I will say that sometimes the primer face will become a little bet deformed, but they don't come apart. And the disk stays put on the nipple. I've got hundreds of rounds with no issue. If I jump powder to 110gr, about half the time the disk is blown back off the nipple. If I use 375gr bullets and 110 gr BH, I've even had it recock the plunger... I backed off pretty damned quick after that. Just FYI, I don't think I've ever had a CCI Mag primer come completely apart. The disk might be gone from the action, but the primers seem to stay intact. I've had several other mfg. primers come completely apart.
 
OHsmokepole said:
Thanks for the replies! The images sent are basically the same rifle and representative of what I'm talking about in terms of how nasty this action gets. As for the breech plug shown, it's the standard 209 with the retaining spring and blowback vent sliced into it. What I was specifically speaking about altering or fabricating would be a musket cap breech plug for the Knight read disks. It really is a nice gun built as cost-effectively(cheap) as possible. It is NOT built like a Knight, I know exactly by what you're speaking about relative to blowback pressure and even experience it with my Knight Wolverine. Pushing a 375 grain bullet with 110gr of BH in the wolverine has on more than one occasion recocked the plunger with blowback and blown the disk out of the action. I don't run it with more than 100gr BH or heavy bullets anymore for that reason. Fixed the issue immediately. If I'm not pushing the Wolverine hard, the disk doesn't come off of the nipple and it remains very clean. Basically no residue in the action. I realize with the bolt design for the Traditions is basically a plunger mechanism and thought about that issue, BUT, I simply hoped with reasonable loads that it might still be feasible and safe. I also think the tension fit of the disk might provide some potential for reducing the blowback. I'm happy to be the guinea pig rifle if I can get somebody with the skill to make it.

I can tell you using a Knight FPJ plug with red plastic disks does not keep the breech clean. The blow back pressure will swell the jacket and it will leak out along the sides of the stem. In your case the jacket will just push back against your hammer forcing it back into the bolt some distance and the jacket will probably even leak more. With a Knight the jacket can only push back so far against the face of the bolt then the pressure swells the FPJ and pressure and blow back is released.

This picture of FPJ really doesn't show the mess very well yet. This was the first shot but you can see the beginning of the build up...



This pic might give a better idea of the blow back if you check the FPJ's in the picture. And remember this is with the FPJ held in place on the FPJ post of the breech

 
Just out of curiosity, will the large end of the RFPJ fit into the end of the bolt?

As Sabotloader stated the plastic jacket will expand some from the Blowback pressure which will still let it leak. I'm not sure you will ever obtain a completely clean action in this manner. But.. If you were to make a real tight fitting Nipple on the BP to mimic a Knight RFPJ plug (basically copy the Knight RFPJ plug from your Wolverine) so you could install the RJPJ as it was meant to be used "And" the large end does not recess into the bolt but instead is large enough to allow the bolt to "Press" that RFPJ onto the nipple stack, then it might help.

Just a thought. Let us know what you do.
 
I guess term clean is a bit relative. The worst Knight I've ever seen is 100 times cleaner than the 209 primed Traditions. Furthermore, the bolt on the Traditions, while anything but complicated, is a pain it the butt. It gets really dirty pretty quickly.

The large end of the disk won't fit inside the bolt tube, but the small end fits with room to spare! If you turn them around opposite as you would load your Knight, it's perfect inside the bolt tube. The bolt on the tradition isn't like a true bolt .. There is no firing pin so to speak. The firing mechanism in the bolt tube is just a smashing plunger with a point on it. You can't really force or crush fit a primer without risking setting off the primer. Even if you could, the whole bolt face/firing pin has to be able to move back within the bolt so as to get a run up to the primer when fired. Am I making sense?
 
OHsmokepole said:
I guess term clean is a bit relative. The worst Knight I've ever seen is 100 times cleaner than the 209 primed Traditions. Furthermore, the bolt on the Traditions, while anything but complicated, is a pain it the butt. It gets really dirty pretty quickly.

The large end of the disk won't fit inside the bolt tube, but the small end fits with room to spare! If you turn them around opposite as you would load your Knight, it's perfect inside the bolt tube. The bolt on the tradition isn't like a true bolt .. There is no firing pin so to speak. The firing mechanism in the bolt tube is just a smashing plunger with a point on it. You can't really force or crush fit a primer without risking setting off the primer. Even if you could, the whole bolt face/firing pin has to be able to move back within the bolt so as to get a run up to the primer when fired. Am I making sense?

I know how it works, I had one for a while. They are a real pain to clean. Maybe my idea was not explained well. I was thinking that if the larger end of the red jacket was also larger than the bolt body or about the same diameter then when you close the bolt that bolt body would press that RPJ down onto the "Nipple" same as on a Knight Bolt for the RPJ. Then the Plunger would just fall and set off the primer. IF you got a good press fit on the RPJ it may well permit good ignition but I still don't think it would eliminate blow back but it may give you cleaner action. If the bolt body could press that RPJ on to the nipple it would also prevent it from blowing the RPJ back. The only thing that may interfere with the cone on the plunger striking the primer would be that rim around the face of the plunger.

I am thinking that using the smaller end (Thinner) of the RPJ may allow it to expand more around the primer and would would get a good deal of carbon blowing back into the bolt body. I guess it boils down to how much room you will actually have between the closed bolt body and the Breech plug. I forget. At one time I cut a piece of fuel line IIRCC) to put in mine to cover the 209 nipple yet still allow the hammer/plunger to strike the primer. I sold the rifle before ever trying it.

As for your statement about not being able to crush fit a primer, That would be true for the Traditions rifle, but we do exactly that with the Knight Bolt actions. The Preferred Crush is .003 to .005 from the new primer out of the box using the Bare primer bolt and breech plug.
 
ShawnT said:
Howdy OHsmokepole,

First off, Welcome to the Forum!

Some of the problems with some rifles don't fully come down to just a "New/updated" Breech plug, to get BH 209 to ignite consistently. Some of the issues have been found to be caused by head-space issues that exist between the Breech plug, the primer, and the bolt. BH 209 will generate more back pressure that can cause the primer to back out of the primer pocket some or just plain not create a good seal between the primer and the bottom of the breech plug primer pocket, and Maintain that seal while the powder is still burning. If the Bolt has the proper head-space it will push the primer all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket and slightly crush the primer to cause and maintain a good seal when you close the bolt. This crush fit will cause all of the primers heat and pressure to be directed though the Flash hole to the powder. IF the head-space is not causing the crush fit it May still ignite the powder but will allow blow-back to enter the action and soot things up. If the Primer is not sealed at all in the primer pocket you will get extremely inconsistent ignition. I a plunger action that back pressure can cause the plunger to move back and have the primer back out of the primer pocket.

So what does this mean. The Traditions Evolution/Thunderbolt series action is a hybrid in that it has a bolt with a Plunger inside of it. So even with a better breech plug you still have a plunger that can/will move back and possible still let blowback enter the action even if you get it to ignite BH. That action is a but better then the true plunger action because to still have a bolt to help limit anything blowing back out of the primer pocket, But it will not eliminate it. There really is not much more than the spring to stop it from blowing back the plunger some or even fully recocking it. The limited time I spent with one of those actions, I did not see that the Primer ever could be sealed to the bottom of the primer pocket since the bolt really don't press the primer in there. While a modified Plastic Jacket like your are looking at could possibly help seal the primer, I'm not sure it would give consistent ignition and don't see it preventing the Blowback.

From the time I spent with it, there were 2 things I saw that would make that rifle so much better. Make the Bolt a True bolt that has a Firing pin, and not a plunger, and make a good breech plug that will allow a crush fit on the primer between the bottom of the primer pocket and the bolt.
 
ShawnT said:
OHsmokepole said:
I guess term clean is a bit relative. The worst Knight I've ever seen is 100 times cleaner than the 209 primed Traditions. Furthermore, the bolt on the Traditions, while anything but complicated, is a pain it the butt. It gets really dirty pretty quickly.

The large end of the disk won't fit inside the bolt tube, but the small end fits with room to spare! If you turn them around opposite as you would load your Knight, it's perfect inside the bolt tube. The bolt on the tradition isn't like a true bolt .. There is no firing pin so to speak. The firing mechanism in the bolt tube is just a smashing plunger with a point on it. You can't really force or crush fit a primer without risking setting off the primer. Even if you could, the whole bolt face/firing pin has to be able to move back within the bolt so as to get a run up to the primer when fired. Am I making sense?

I know how it works, I had one for a while. They are a real pain to clean. Maybe my idea was not explained well. I was thinking that if the larger end of the red jacket was also larger than the bolt body or about the same diameter then when you close the bolt that bolt body would press that RPJ down onto the "Nipple" same as on a Knight Bolt for the RPJ. Then the Plunger would just fall and set off the primer. IF you got a good press fit on the RPJ it may well permit good ignition but I still don't think it would eliminate blow back but it may give you cleaner action. If the bolt body could press that RPJ on to the nipple it would also prevent it from blowing the RPJ back. The only thing that may interfere with the cone on the plunger striking the primer would be that rim around the face of the plunger.

I am thinking that using the smaller end (Thinner) of the RPJ may allow it to expand more around the primer and would would get a good deal of carbon blowing back into the bolt body. I guess it boils down to how much room you will actually have between the closed bolt body and the Breech plug. I forget. At one time I cut a piece of fuel line IIRCC) to put in mine to cover the 209 nipple yet still allow the hammer/plunger to strike the primer. I sold the rifle before ever trying it.
As for your statement about not being able to crush fit a primer, That would be true for the Traditions rifle, but we do exactly that with the Knight Bolt actions. The Preferred Crush is .003 to .005 from the new primer out of the box using the Bare primer bolt and breech plug.

I'll sure check. That makes perfect sense to crush the jacket with edge of the bolt body. However, I think that means that the plunger face with the "firing pin" would have to protrude past the face of the bolt body to fire. I'm not sure it's possible, and if you look at the plunger face, there is a rim around it that I'm assuming would interfere with the pin making contact with the primer. I'm not above getting rid of that rim, but I do however worry about the bolt face protruding out of the front of the bolt body when shutting the bolt. I believe the plunger face doesn't retract into the bolt body and the cocked position until the bolt is turned down. If so, the plunger face and firing pin would be making contact with the bolt as it's being pushed forward. Does that make sense?
 
Yes It makes since what your saying. But watch real close as you push the bolt forward. The cocking piece on the back bottom of the bolt will make contact with the trigger sear and as you push the bolt forward it will start pulling the plunger back. When you turn the bolt down it will already be at full cock. How far it gets pulled back will depend on how you installed the plunger into the cocking piece when you assembled it. If I remember correctly the plunger should not stick out past the end of the bolt body even when the bolt is out of the rifle.

Yup i just checked the manual. When assembling the bolt you start with the plunger recessed by 1/16" from the end of the bolt body and then test with caps or primers. When you pull the trigger the plunger will fly forward and still strike the primer as it is ever so slightly recessed into the bolt when it is closed. I think the main purpose of that little lip on the plunger is so you have the 2 notches for the Disassembly tool, so you can unscrew the plunger from the cocking piece. That lip might hit the RPJ and stop it from setting off the primer but that may well depend on how long that little cone is in the center of the plungers face that strikes the primer center. That part I don't remember.

Either way you inserted the RPJ would work since the hole for the primer is the same all the way though. So you could try it both ways.

By the way one of the reasons you do get so much crud in the action is the venting cut into the sides of those primer pockets on the BP that the spring retainer sort of cover up. That is one reason I was going to try a piece of fuel line around that nipple stack.

Did you get a manual with the rifle? Just curious.
 
I finally dug it out of the safe... Good News... the bolt cocks on opening so the plunger firing pin wouldn't come into contact with the primer at any point other than firing. The large end of the RPJ will barely fit within the bolt body(as if machined for them) but the rim of the plunger would prevent contact with the firing pin. The small end of the RPJ would be the way to do it. Which brings me back to needing a breech plug fabricated to the length needed to accept the RPJ...
What got my attention was the camming action during the opening/cocking of the bolt. It occurred to me that unlike a knight plunger, when blowback occurs - particularly heavy blowback, the knight will actually recock... It was kind of my barometer as to when I was nearing it's reasonable safety limits of being hit in the face with shrapnel from bolt pieces or exploding primer parts. Unscientific for sure, but I always stayed within loading parameters listed by knight as safe. The traditions wouldn't give me that. The plunger will just recoil back and then fall straight back into the fired position. It won't recock until the bolt is turned upward. My fear is that blowback pressure could be really significant or possibly dangerous with no practical or even anecdotal way to know. I doubt it would, but I've now way of knowing. I'm sure it's fine but I'll damned sure fire it remotely a bunch of time if I can get the correct plug made
 

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