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Blown up Savage

Loads, tips, and shooting for the Savage muzzleloader, SMI smokeless and other muzzleloaders approved for smokeless ONLY. Warning! Smokeless powder loads are not for use in any other muzzleloaders.

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sdporter
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Blown up Savage

Postby sdporter » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:40 pm

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum and have a couple of questions that it sounds like several of you may have an answer for. A few years back I was curious why a guy (or gal) couldn't shoot smokeless out of a muzzleloader, I figured in my own, feeble mindedness, that if you produced the same velocity with a given weight of projectile, that the pressure in the barrel should be the same, so I asked google. What turns up but the Savage 10ML II. Needless to say, I went out and bought it.
I bought Accurate 5744 (only because there were other loads for it in some of the cartridges I reload) TC Easy Glide sabots with 250 grain, I think, bullets (yellow sabot, yellow tip). I loaded it up with the middle of the road load for 5744 (by weight). Don't recall the exact amount, forty something grains. It shot like a dream!!
I have it topped with a Burris Scout 1X scope, (all that was legal in Utah at that time) and was getting two inch grouping at 100 yds. I sighted it about 4" high at 100 yds and was pounding the crap out of a paper plate at 200.
Since powders which contain nitro-cellulose are not legal on Utah's muzzleloader hunt. I put it away, thinking I could use it during the any weapon (rifle) season. Haven't shot it since.
Last week on the news (Fox 13 Now) there was a story of a guy who was sighting in his muzzleloader and it blew up in his face. It was a Remington Ultimate. His buddy was filming and so the whole thing was on video. It appeared to me that he was shooting smokeless powder through it. No big puff of white smoke.
When I was searching for this video, it led me to several results that had to do with Savage rifles blowing up.
There seemed to be two conflicting sides to this topic. Randy Wakeman and a fellow (don't recall his name) who was supposedly let go by Savage for being a malcontent. Randy saying there is no problem, the other dude saying, basically, do not shoot your Savage! I called Savage and got a gal on the phone who basically answered my questions but, she wouldn't really volunteer any information when I asked her why the rifle was discontinued, and if she knew approximately how many of these rifles have had barrel failures. She did say she believed any failures were from operator error in not sticking to the recommended loads. I emailed Randy and he said he knows of no rifle that has failed when sticking to the manufacturers recommendations. The other dude was showing pictures of breech plugs that had obvious gas cutting around the face, but I fail to see how this would do anything to contribute to a catastrophic failure of the barrel. Seems it would just blow a little hot gas back at your face (common in any sidelock I've ever shot) if it could get past the threads. Since I really got no re-assurance from Savage that my rifle was completely safe, I figured I would ask you guys. Have any of you seen or heard, firsthand, of someone blowing one of these up who was loading it properly? Also what happens when the vent liner hole gets opened up? Sounds to me from what I've been reading, that the gun just won't go off. I would assume that it's purpose is to make the flame from the primer a little more concentrated, or to keep the back pressure against the primer down so it doesn't deform and get stuck, or both. Thanks in advance for any insight.
Stacey
2-.504 Super 91
2-.504 Whitetail G-Series
1-.451 Super 91
1-.50 TC Renegade
1-.54 TC Scout
1-.50 TC Scout
1-.50 CVA Optima
1-.50 Savage 10ML-II

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Re: Blown up Savage

Postby GM54-120 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:53 pm

Ive never heard of a Savage MLII failure that used a factory suggested load and properly loaded. There was one if i remember correctly with LilGun but the guy was using sub bases and larger amounts of powder. He admitted to it and never tried to hide the fact. Lil'Gun has not been recommended or listed as a powder for a very long time and sub bases have always been a "no no" according to Savage.

N110, 5744, SR4759 all work ok. Reloder7 and N120 also work fine with 300gr bullets ONLY.
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sdporter
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Re: Blown up Savage

Postby sdporter » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:19 am

That's kinda what I thought. You read so much stuff on the internet and you don't know who or what to believe. Best to get your info from sources such as these, but then you have to decide who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't. I debated selling the rifle, but it is such a beautiful gun. I traded my Encore and a few bucks for it to a local dealer here.
I had shot a nice four point mule deer with my Encore and didn't get a real great hit on him. Then the shakes set in for fear I was gonna lose him. A couple of clean misses later, I'm ripping the gun apart to clean it so I can get another sabot down the barrel. Right then and there I decided, follow up shots are paramount when hunting. I wish I could say every animal I ever took was a clean one shot kill. Most have been. There's always those unforeseen variables that can rear their ugly head at any moment, a sudden wind gust, an animal that moves just as you squeeze off, a flyer etc...
I wanted a gun that shot flat, reloaded easily, and was dependable. The Savage seems to fit. My Whites all reload easily time after time, but, that rainbow trajectory makes it necessary to range anything out beyond 125 yards. You don't always have time for that.
2-.504 Super 91
2-.504 Whitetail G-Series
1-.451 Super 91
1-.50 TC Renegade
1-.54 TC Scout
1-.50 TC Scout
1-.50 CVA Optima
1-.50 Savage 10ML-II

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GM54-120
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Re: Blown up Savage

Postby GM54-120 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:23 am

The 45cal barrel upgrades turn the MLII into a whole other animal. Ive got one with a Pacnor 45cal barrel. The rage now is a Brux 45cal barrel for very close to the same price as a Pacnor but its cut rifled instead of button rifled. After market 50cals are also available but not often stocked.

275gr bullet over 2700fps is pretty much a piece of cake with these 45cal barrels. Thats not even max.

Im super surprised the SuperGlide sabots works for you. Those are tiny loaded OD and smokeless likes a pretty snug fitting sabot. The MLII is often a little on the large side.
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Re: Blown up Savage

Postby Squeeze » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:58 pm

Im betting ~80% plus of those "catastrophic failures" and internet photos/etc. Can be directly traced to intentionally overloading just for the bad publicity from disgruntled ex "pro staffers" :think:
"What you leave behind is not what is engraved in stone monuments, but what is woven into the lives of others." - Pericles

sdporter
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Re: Blown up Savage

Postby sdporter » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:22 pm

I kinda wondered about that. That's kinda what RW was saying in a lot of the stuff I read. The other thing that was odd I noticed, most of the bulges seemed to be a lot farther up the bore than a standard load would be.
I will have to look into those other barrels, that has really piqued my curiosity. That would be pretty flat shooting for a front stuffer.
2-.504 Super 91
2-.504 Whitetail G-Series
1-.451 Super 91
1-.50 TC Renegade
1-.54 TC Scout
1-.50 TC Scout
1-.50 CVA Optima
1-.50 Savage 10ML-II

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Re: Blown up Savage

Postby GM54-120 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:37 am

Squeeze wrote:Im betting ~80% plus of those "catastrophic failures" and internet photos/etc. Can be directly traced to intentionally overloading just for the bad publicity from disgruntled ex "pro staffers" :think:


That is my guess also. Many people don't realize that William (Bill) Ball runs a gun shop in NC. I imagine he could shed some light on RW's comments if he wanted. He may still offer MLII accurizing also.

I will have to look into those other barrels, that has really piqued my curiosity. That would be pretty flat shooting for a front stuffer.


If you have a Savage barrel nut wrench its fairly simple to swap them out. Might as well get a new lug at the same time and bed the stock. Smokelessmz and Hankins Custom Rifle both offer these barrels for right around $450ish. They also have a improved plug design that uses a tungsten bushing instead of a vent liner. Sealing surface at the rear of the plug too.

http://www.arrowheadsporting.com/prefitbarrels.html

https://www.hankinscustomrifles.com/muz ... -in-stock/
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sdporter
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Re: Blown up Savage

Postby sdporter » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:00 pm

Is there load data for those barrels? I'm seriously gonna check into that.
2-.504 Super 91
2-.504 Whitetail G-Series
1-.451 Super 91
1-.50 TC Renegade
1-.54 TC Scout
1-.50 TC Scout
1-.50 CVA Optima
1-.50 Savage 10ML-II

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Re: Blown up Savage

Postby GM54-120 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:41 pm

sdporter wrote:Is there load data for those barrels? I'm seriously gonna check into that.


TONS of load data with pressure traces. 4198 is probably the most commonly used since its cheap, dependable and pressures are reasonable.
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sdporter
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Re: Blown up Savage

Postby sdporter » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:16 pm

what is the best length in these aftermarket barrels? Isn't the Savage stock barrel 28?
2-.504 Super 91
2-.504 Whitetail G-Series
1-.451 Super 91
1-.50 TC Renegade
1-.54 TC Scout
1-.50 TC Scout
1-.50 CVA Optima
1-.50 Savage 10ML-II

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Re: Blown up Savage

Postby GM54-120 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:21 am

You can get a 45cal upto 30" from Hankins. Its not cut until you order. I think the ones at Smokelessmz are 26". OEM Savage was 24" (i think) and the BassPro smoker version was 26". Mine is a 27" Pacnor. 25"-28" will do just fine for most people and most powders. I think Hankins offers them in both 1-18 and 1-20 twist. I would go 1-20 if you plan on shooting sabots too. These barrels are mainly intended to shoot sabotless so get the adjustable sizing die with the barrel.

Large Shank
1.120X5 tapers to .900 at 30 inches
1.120X5 tapers to .800 at 30 inches
1.120X5 tapers to .700 at 30 inches

Small Shank
1.055X5 tapers to .900 at 30 inches
1.055X5 tapers to .800 at 30 inches
1.055X5 tapers to .700 at 30 inches
Price: $440.00
These Savage Pre-Fit barrels are available in either small or large shank and come with a 209 breech plug of your choice. When ordered, the barrel will be cut and crowned to your specified length up to 30 inches.
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sdporter
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Location: Southern Utah

Re: Blown up Savage

Postby sdporter » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:34 pm

Are you able to shoot sabotless with them? I was kinda under the impression conicals were a no-no??? I haven't called them yet. Need to scrape together some $$$ into the fun fund first. What is the sizing die used for? Sorry, I'm not new to muzzleloading, but I am to muzzleloading with smokeless powder. There's a lot I have no idea about.
2-.504 Super 91
2-.504 Whitetail G-Series
1-.451 Super 91
1-.50 TC Renegade
1-.54 TC Scout
1-.50 TC Scout
1-.50 CVA Optima
1-.50 Savage 10ML-II

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GM54-120
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Re: Blown up Savage

Postby GM54-120 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:56 pm

Sabotless jacketed bullets. Ive shot lead conicals in mine also but with BH209. Works fine.

The sizing die is adjustable so you can get the bullets to fit just right. They will load as easy or easier than a sabot when you get the hang of it.
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