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Here2learn

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I realize this question has nothing to do with a muzzleloader. It does however, pertain to muzzleloading sabots. I hope some of you can be of help. This year Ohio has added the 450 Bushmaster to the list of accepted straight wall cartridges. The 450 BM shoots a .451/.452 bullet. Ruger recently released a few bolt action rifles and the No.1 in 450 BM. I have purchased two Ruger American 450s. One with a 16" and one with a 22" barrel. Since this rifle is built on a Ruger American short action and the 450 was developed for the AR-15 there is a lot of space left open in the magazine. I plan on reloading for this rifle. The twist rate on these rifles is 1/16". I am anticipating velocity at 2500 fps +/- 100fps with 250 grain bullets. The two bullets I know I am going to try are the Parker 275 Ballistic Extreme and the Parker 270 Emax. The other two I have considered are the Lehigh .400 215 CF (Advertised BC is .330) in a sabot and the .358 250 Speer Hot-Cor in a sabot. (Advertised BC is .389) I would try one of the two PR .357/.358 sabots. My questions are. Would a sabot hold up to these velocities? I realize there is a good chance the .358 drills the sabot. I also realize the .358 wouldn't be legal in a lot of places. Would somehow putting a copper gas check on the base of the sabot help any? Or will the 1/16" twist tear it apart. My most important question is would this be safe to try out? The ballistics on the .358 are amazing... if it worked.
 
Here2learn said:
I realize this question has nothing to do with a muzzleloader. It does however, pertain to muzzleloading sabots. I hope some of you can be of help. This year Ohio has added the 450 Bushmaster to the list of accepted straight wall cartridges. The 450 BM shoots a .451/.452 bullet. Ruger recently released a few bolt action rifles and the No.1 in 450 BM. I have purchased two Ruger American 450s. One with a 16" and one with a 22" barrel. Since this rifle is built on a Ruger American short action and the 450 was developed for the AR-15 there is a lot of space left open in the magazine. I plan on reloading for this rifle. The twist rate on these rifles is 1/16". I am anticipating velocity at 2500 fps +/- 100fps with 250 grain bullets. The two bullets I know I am going to try are the Parker 275 Ballistic Extreme and the Parker 270 Emax. The other two I have considered are the Lehigh .400 215 CF (Advertised BC is .330) in a sabot and the .358 250 Speer Hot-Cor in a sabot. (Advertised BC is .389) I would try one of the two PR .357/.358 sabots. My questions are. Would a sabot hold up to these velocities? I realize there is a good chance the .358 drills the sabot. I also realize the .358 wouldn't be legal in a lot of places. Would somehow putting a copper gas check on the base of the sabot help any? Or will the 1/16" twist tear it apart. My most important question is would this be safe to try out? The ballistics on the .358 are amazing... if it worked.
 

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Im pretty certain the 45x357 sabot will not handle that kind of pressure. Also a 450BM is a .442 land by 451 groove. 45cal sabots are made for a 458 barrel. Anything faster than 1-20 twist is really fast for sabots made for MLs. The smallest load OD sabot im aware of is about .454 and made by Harvester. The MMPs run .456 or larger.
 
Even at smoker pressures success with 35X45 sabots is spotty and I've tried a lot both smoker and SML. SML with 35X45 sabots has been complete FUBU. I don't think a gas check will help. Best advice is try it. If successful then report results. Then thanks for the testing and I have some information to work with. Wishing you the best results. Yes I think, my opinion, it would be safe test trial. W
 
wolfer said:
Even at smoker pressures success with 35X45 sabots is spotty and I've tried a lot both smoker and SML. SML with 35X45 sabots has been complete FUBU. I don't think a gas check will help. Best advice is try it. If successful then report results. Then thanks for the testing and I have some information to work with. Wishing you the best results. Yes I think, my opinion, it would be safe test trial. W


I have dies on the way. I also have four different kinds of 40/45 sabots. I plan on giving them all a try. I'm going to ditch the .358 idea. I will post the results when I finish. I figured it would be safe. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overlooking anything, and that I wasn't beating a dead snake. I know Remington made a saboted 22 in a 30-06 at one time. That's where the idea came from. I would love to know the material they used for their sabot.
 
I would be somewhat surprised if they will even go in the chamber especially with a .456 loaded OD sabot. Lee can make you a sizing die to take a 40cal down to .398 or less if needed. It probably isnt going to resize a brass bullet though. Even copper can be tough if trying to go down more than .002 in a single pass.

My best guess is you will need a .398 bullet in a Havester light blue smooth sabot. IMO that is the best chance of getting it to shoot at all.
 
Sabots can be made extremely tough. How much $ you got to put into it. The 20MM cannon that is the tank killer carried by Warthog aircraft shoots a depleted uranium bullet in a sabot. Now that's tough. Can be done but not with the current sabots commonly available to the general public for sporting uses. W
 
Just wondering but, why not shoot and reload without a sabot? I reload 37.9grs Lil'Gun with just the 250FTX, but I've seen them loaded with Parker MH bullets. Accurate little bugger out to 300yds.
 
ENCORE50A said:
Just wondering but, why not shoot and reload without a sabot? I reload 37.9grs Lil'Gun with just the 250FTX, but I've seen them loaded with Parker MH bullets. Accurate little bugger out to 300yds.

I agree. I have shot the factory Hornady loads out to 300yds and have been very pleased. This was not a must do. I just looked at the higher BCs of those bullets and thought "what if". I am a big fan of the Lehigh 215 CF. I know with that bullet I will definitely get good penetration and pretty good terminal performance. I figured at 2500 to 2600 fps it would be real nasty. The SSTs are good bullets. Very Accurate. My only problem with them is that I have had about 50% of the bullets recovered be separated from the jacket. I checked last night, and the round with the smooth blue sabot and 215CF did chamber in my rifle. I measured the bullet with sabot at .453. I'm probably going to load 2 or 3 and send them down the pipe just to see. Most likely the idea will be abandoned afterwards. Jeff Quin is reloading the 450 BM with 250 Rem Accutips and getting 2500fps out of a 16" barrel bolt action. I imagine any of the Barnes 45 ML bullets would work. Back to the sabots. Like I said. This wasn't a "must do" or "it will work" idea. Just an idea I was curious about and wanted some opinions. I really do appreciate yours and the other guys feedback.
 
ENCORE50A said:
Just wondering but, why not shoot and reload without a sabot? I reload 37.9grs Lil'Gun with just the 250FTX, but I've seen them loaded with Parker MH bullets. Accurate little bugger out to 300yds.

I had some free time this afternoon so I shot my long barrel 450 at 305yds. Accuracy was great for resting on a coat on my truck hood. We have had a lot of rain and I used a wet clay bank for a backstop. This is the factory Hornady ammo with the 250 FTX. Shots 1,2, and 4 were in a 2" group. I pulled number 3 which made the group 4". Still not bad. I was able to recover one of the bullets from the bank. Great expansion, and a retained weight of 204 grains. That's 82% weight retention. However while I was cleaning the bullet with water the core fell out of the jacket. I'm sure that it would have performed fine on a deer at that distance. What worries me is closer range. I'm hoping that bullet won't explode at 50yds when impacting at higher velocity. Kind of the other reason I wanted to try the 215CF in a sabot. I just wish Hornady would somehow bond the core to the jacket on the FTX. It is one accurate bullet. Thank you for the load data!
 
I just wish Hornady would somehow bond the core to the jacket on the FTX. It is one accurate bullet. Thank you for the load data!

They do make them that way but its only sold to T/C. Its called a bonded Shockwave. Look for the ones with a blue tip instead of yellow.

Over 21" of penetration in perma-gel and retained 234gr at about the same speed as a 450BM can shoot them...around 2250fps
Perma-Gel054.jpg
 
Here2learn said:
ENCORE50A said:
Just wondering but, why not shoot and reload without a sabot? I reload 37.9grs Lil'Gun with just the 250FTX, but I've seen them loaded with Parker MH bullets. Accurate little bugger out to 300yds.

..... What worries me is closer range. I'm hoping that bullet won't explode at 50yds when impacting at higher velocity.... Thank you for the load data!

During the 2015 I used the .450 (rare that I don't use the muzz). With my reloads I took a buck at approximately 70yds or so. The 250FTX bullet passed completely through the animal, leaving a 1"+ exit hole. Completely turned the insides to jelly! There was no cutting required, just pouring. I'm actually quite impressed with that little bugger ;)
Please be careful with the experimenting.
 
I shoot the 45 Raptor which is very similar to the BM. I've used the 240xtp mag and 200 barnes xpb @2900 fps with great success. no need for any sabot, plug the twist rate is wrong for the CF bullet. I love to tinker, but the KISS principle rules here.
 
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