Need help with accuracy!

Modern Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Modern Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

CoHiCntry

Well-Known Member
*
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
503
Reaction score
46
I'm shooting a new to me T/C Renegade in .54 caliber. It's a percussion lock and 1:48 twist. My load is a Hornaday Great Plains 425 gr. bullet, T7 powder (FFG) and a Remington #11 cap.

I started with 70 gr. of T7 at 25 yards and had a pretty good group. I moved the target back to 50 yards and the group opened up way to much. I increased the powder to 80 gr. and the group tightened back up. I then moved the target to 75 yards and stuck with the same 80 gr. load. The group is acceptable but not great. I tried going up to 90 gr. of powder and that's obviously too much. I shot twice at 90 gr. and one hit the edge of my target and the other missed the target and box completely!

So 80 gr. seems to be the sweet spot but the groups are just fair at 75 yards. I'd like to tighten up the group and extend my effective range to 100 yards. I'm wanting to stick with this bullet and powder if possible. I don't have a ton of time to try a bunch of different bullet/ powder combinations before the September hunting season.

So I'm thinking about trying an over powder wad of some type. I've never used these but have heard others having good success with them. I started looking at some online but not sure what kind to buy? They come in different materials like wool, vegetable, leather etc. Different thicknesses and both lubed and dry. My thought is to go with a lubed wool type wad. Can anyone steer me in the right direction here? Maybe recommend a certain type of wad and where to get them? Appreciate the help...
 
I swear by the .060 Thousands Vegetable fibre over powder wads, but i also like the store bought Oxyoke brand Wool OP Wads, The trick with wool is to go oversized, i use 50 Cal wool wads in my .45 Cal rifle, 54 Cal wads in my .50 Cal rifles, and .58 Cal Wads in my .54 Cal rifles, You want to create the best possible Gas seal behind the bullet as you possibly can and make it repeatable. If you create a Good solid and repeatable Gas seal behind the bullet, and your powder is consistent, accuracy will follow.
Does your rifle have the QLA Muzzle? If so the Vegetable fibre wads will likely not work well? (at least they didn't for me in my New Englander with QLA, nor my Dads .54 Cal Renegade with QLA) The Vegetable fibre wads are by far my favorite in Barrels WITHOUT the QLA, if you have a QLA i would advise .58 Cal Wool wads, You can get them from Buffalo Arms, and Track Of The Wolf. If your rifle does not have the QLA muzzle i will gladly send you some of my .060 Thousands Vegetable fibre OP wads to try, i buy bulk material and punch them out myself, i use a 9/16" Hole punch for 54 Cal. I also have plenty of wool wads, i can send you some of them as well. The best shooting bullet i have tried in my stock .54 Cal 1:48 twist barrels is the Lyman Plains, it is .85 long, and weighs 460 grains, i have the mold and pour these myself, i only keep bullets that weigh within 1 Grain of eachother.
Another couple of things i would personally do if it were my new Rifle is to replace the nipple with a new one (I HIGHLY advise Treso/Ampco nipples) Worn nipples can WREAK HAVOC on accuracy!! And last, weigh your powder charges out on a beam scale if you have one? Put your pre weighed charges in small vials/containers of some sort (i get them from a craft store for 10 cents a piece) Use your Volume measure set to whatever you desire and test weigh 3-4 charges from your volume measure to your beam scale in grains to get an average of what your Volume measure is throwing in weight grains, Then weigh your charges out on the beam scale. Not all powders are the same!! So make DARN sure you check between your volume and beam, for example Pryodex is heavier by volume than real black powder. The key to getting the utmost out of your rifle is to take out as many variables as possible, (Bullets weighing the same, powder charges weighing the same) A volume measure works, but is nowhere near as accurate as weighing your charges precisely on a beam scale.
 
only thing I see wrong in Lewis's post is the Pyro to black weight ratio. accordin' to the manufacturer Pyrodex by volume weighs about 30% LESS than black powder meanin' in a measure set for 100gr black would only weigh around 70gr when filled with Pyrodex.

and as far as shootin' for accuracy is concerned, I would listen to anything he says 'cause he's done the work & knows what works & what don't. :yeah:
 
bubba.50 said:
only thing I see wrong in Lewis's post is the Pyro to black weight ratio. accordin' to the manufacturer Pyrodex by volume weighs about 30% LESS than black powder meanin' in a measure set for 100gr black would only weigh around 70gr when filled with Pyrodex.

and as far as shootin' for accuracy is concerned, I would listen to anything he says 'cause he's done the work & knows what works & what don't. :yeah:

Thank you for correcting that bubba! I did have the Pyrodex wrong and that is a BIG DEAL! I don't shoot the stuff and never have, and probably never will. I just know I've read to NEVER think volume to weight grains are equal, and especially so with Pyrodex. I have found it to be really close with Real Black powder, BUT i stil check weigh from my volume measure to my beam scale just to make DARN sure!

Weighing on a beam scale might seem ridiculous to some? But in fact it is extremely simple to do, takes me just a few minutes to pre weigh my charges the night before, when i get ready to load I don't have to fumble around with a volume measure, and its inconsistencies, Ive heard some claim that it doesnt matter? Just get it close is good enough, those guys are backyard hit a pie plate, maybe a haybale and they are happy type fellas. I am exactly the opposite, i want everything as near dead on as i can possibly make them, i dont just wanna hit a milk jug at 100 yards, i wanna hit the Cap of the milk jug! My shooting shows that being picky pays off for me
 
yeh, I guess on the plus side, with Pyrodex you should(at least theoretically) get about 30% more shots from a pound. :)
 
Idaholewis said:
I swear by the .060 Thousands Vegetable fibre over powder wads, but i also like the store bought Oxyoke brand Wool OP Wads, The trick with wool is to go oversized, i use 50 Cal wool wads in my .45 Cal rifle, 54 Cal wads in my .50 Cal rifles, and .58 Cal Wads in my .54 Cal rifles, You want to create the best possible Gas seal behind the bullet as you possibly can and make it repeatable. If you create a Good solid and repeatable Gas seal behind the bullet, and your powder is consistent, accuracy will follow.
Does your rifle have the QLA Muzzle? If so the Vegetable fibre wads will likely not work well? (at least they didn't for me in my New Englander with QLA, nor my Dads .54 Cal Renegade with QLA) The Vegetable fibre wads are by far my favorite in Barrels WITHOUT the QLA, if you have a QLA i would advise .58 Cal Wool wads, You can get them from Buffalo Arms, and Track Of The Wolf. If your rifle does not have the QLA muzzle i will gladly send you some of my .060 Thousands Vegetable fibre OP wads to try, i buy bulk material and punch them out myself, i use a 9/16" Hole punch for 54 Cal. I also have plenty of wool wads, i can send you some of them as well. The best shooting bullet i have tried in my stock .54 Cal 1:48 twist barrels is the Lyman Plains, it is .85 long, and weighs 460 grains, i have the mold and pour these myself, i only keep bullets that weigh within 1 Grain of eachother.
Another couple of things i would personally do if it were my new Rifle is to replace the nipple with a new one (I HIGHLY advise Treso/Ampco nipples) Worn nipples can WREAK HAVOC on accuracy!! And last, weigh your powder charges out on a beam scale if you have one? Put your pre weighed charges in small vials/containers of some sort (i get them from a craft store for 10 cents a piece) Use your Volume measure set to whatever you desire and test weigh 3-4 charges from your volume measure to your beam scale in grains to get an average of what your Volume measure is throwing in weight grains, Then weigh your charges out on the beam scale. Not all powders are the same!! So make DARN sure you check between your volume and beam, for example Pryodex is heavier by volume than real black powder. The key to getting the utmost out of your rifle is to take out as many variables as possible, (Bullets weighing the same, powder charges weighing the same) A volume measure works, but is nowhere near as accurate as weighing your charges precisely on a beam scale.

Thanks for the reply! I'm pretty sure my Renegade does NOT have a QLA barrel. My grandpa bought it new around 1975. I don't believe the earlier rifles have the QLA? Do you know where I could get some Vegetable Fiber wads in .54? I looked briefly but could only find .50 cal ones. Think I'll get some lubed wool wads in .58 as you recommended too. I'll try both and see what the results are. I appreciate your offer to send me some of yours to try but I hate to bother you with that. I can just buy some somewhere.
 
As Harleysboss just stated 28 Gauge is what you will need for your .54 Cal if you go the Card route, They dont make any of the card/Vegetable fibre wads that i know of that specifically state 54 Cal, that is why i bought a 9/16 Hole punch so i could make my own. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the oversize wool wads, Like i said in my previous post i use .58 Cal wool wads in my .54 Cal Rifles.

One thing to note, Dont worry if the Card Wad, Wool wad starts a bit sideways, when you start pushing them down they will straighten out. I always try to keep them straight by using my thumbs to push in and get them started, but i have also had them get sideways and i just went ahead with the ramrod, you can actually feel the resistance when they straighten out. The Wool felt wads will load way easier, you will feel little to no resistance, while the card type wads load MUCH stiffer. I personally feel you get the best Gas seal with the Card type wads, But fact is I always shot just as well with the oversize wool wads (oversize is key with the Wool in my opinion) Ford, Chevy thing, You won't go wrong with either.
 
What is a shot card made out of? I just ordered a pack of both .54 & .58 lubed wool wads (Oxyoke). I'll try these out and report back. Thanks for all the help!
 
CoHiCntry said:
What is a shot card made out of? I just ordered a pack of both .54 & .58 lubed wool wads (Oxyoke). I'll try these out and report back. Thanks for all the help!

They look and feel like stiff cardboard, The material reminds me of those stiff file folders, same as the Vegetable Fibre OP Wads, i also have .060 thou LDPE Wad material (Low Density Poly-Ethylene) Lot of the competition shooters swear by this stuff, i have tried and compared them all side by side and I personally couldn't tell any difference? They all worked good for me
 
CoHiCntry said:
What is a shot card made out of? I just ordered a pack of both .54 & .58 lubed wool wads (Oxyoke). I'll try these out and report back. Thanks for all the help!


when I had my 50cal rollin' block I bought a punch from Buffalo Arms & made my own over-powder card wads from milk cartons. once ya get a rhythm goin' it don't take long at all to punch out a thou. still got a couple thousand of them layin' around. never saw the need for'em but might hafta try'em in my muzzlers since a lot of people swear by the benefits of them.
 
Since you're using a bullet with a hollow base, wads can sometimes be detrimental to accuracy. I personally have never had good results when using wads in hollow base bullets but you won't know until you try. Also every T/C 1-48" twist I've ever tried showed a definite preference for either bullets or round balls, your Renegade may like RB's better. Real black powder often out shoots T7 accuracy wise with bore size bullets.
 
admiral said:
Since you're using a bullet with a hollow base, wads can sometimes be detrimental to accuracy. I personally have never had good results when using wads in hollow base bullets but you won't know until you try. Also every T/C 1-48" twist I've ever tried showed a definite preference for either bullets or round balls, your Renegade may like RB's better. Real black powder often out shoots T7 accuracy wise with bore size bullets.


This is true, I didn't think about these being a hollow base? I have really good luck using the hard card Vege fibre wads with cupped base bullets. I tried true Hollow base Minie bullets one time in a stock 1:48 twist with wool over powder wads and that turned out to be disastrous at best, I couldn't stay on a sheet of plywood, but then again I had horrible luck with Minie's every way i tried them, i finally gave up on them. The bullets the OP is using are more of a cupped base correct? They might do just fine? I am not a huge fan of the Stock 48 twist barrels, i am a dedicated bullet shooter so i prefer a faster twist, The 1:28-1:32 twist have given me exceptional results with paper patched bullets. If i were gonna shoot round ball i would go with a slower 1:66 twist. The 1:48 twist is 'suppose' to shoot either bullet or round ball, but not a master at either. I agree that the OP's rifle will likely shoot one better than the other. I have pretty much given up on my stock TC 1:48 twist barrels, No doubt I expect to much from them, it makes it tough shooting a stock 48 twist barrel after shooting these Green Mountain LRH fast twist barrels with paper patch bullets 1" and better @ 100 yards. One has to work with what he has tho, i am sure the OP will find a combo that works in his rifle. I have no desire to shoot Round ball, therefore no experience with them
 
Still waiting for the wads from Buffalo Arms to come in the mail. Tracking shows they were supposed to be here today but no luck. I don't have a lot of time before hunting season and was really hoping to use this rifle. Suppose I'll use it either way but I'd be a lot more confident if I could get the groups tightened up! I'd call it a 75 yard gun now, I'd like to be confident in it at 100 yards. Hopefully Monday...
 
CoHiCntry said:
Still waiting for the wads from Buffalo Arms to come in the mail. Tracking shows they were supposed to be here today but no luck. I don't have a lot of time before hunting season and was really hoping to use this rifle. Suppose I'll use it either way but I'd be a lot more confident if I could get the groups tightened up! I'd call it a 75 yard gun now, I'd like to be confident in it at 100 yards. Hopefully Monday...

Keep us updated on how you do, my offer to send you some Vege fibre wads stil stands, I guarantee these hard wads will not push up into the cupped base of your bullets, I shoot Buffalo Arms cupped base bullets and these Vege fibre wads all the way out to 500 yards accurately with my .45 Cal Green Mountain fast twist barrel in a TC Hawken stock, accuracy at this distance would not be possible if everything wasn't working right. Im gonna say the bigger 58 Cal wool wads will be your best bet due to them being well over sized, even with the wad pushing up into the cupped base it is over bore enough that it will seal the bore good, the wads should be found 20 yards or so from the gun, if by chance you find wads at your target that would be considered a failure, meaning they jammed in the cupped base and made the trip to the target, this is where accuracy will diminish. I would Go with the 58 Cal wool wads and I'll bet you will be fine, try and find the wads to see how far they are making it from the barrel?

If you have problems with this setup i will gladly send you the Vegetable fibre wads and some of my poured Lyman Plains bullets, they weigh in at 460 Grains, they are a flat base bullet, and so far have shot VERY WELL for everyone ive had try them, Most recently was forum member Harleysboss, he and i just got together and shot a few days ago, i had him try these Lyman Plains through his Knight MK-85, i just now went and measured his shots, at 75-80 yards he shot a 1.5" Group. I would almost Gaurantee you would get good accuracy out to 100-150 yards with this setup. I also pour a specific TC Maxi ball (rounded lube Grooves) that i am confident would shoot just as well in your stock rifle, after all TC designed them for their guns and Twist rate. Let us know how it goes with the cupped base bullets you have and the wool wads, dont get bummed out if they don't shoot to your expectations, i will set you up with some that i am confident will
 
The Ox Yoke wads from Buffalo Arms came in the mail yesterday so I went to the range today!

I started right where I left off using 80 grains of T7, A Remington #11 cap, and a 425 grain Hornady Great Plains bullet. Target was at 75 yards. I used the .54 caliber wads for the first four shots. 3 of the 4 bullets were in a 2" group. One was 3-5" away from the others. (Not sure what happened on that one? If it was me or just a flyer?)

I switched to the .58 caliber wads for four shots and got a 3.5" group. Both groups are much better than what I was getting previously, so I was happy. I decided to move the target back to 100 yards.

I shot three times using the .58 caliber wads and got a 4" group. Not bad! I then switched to the .54 caliber wad for three shots and got a 2.5" group! I was more than happy with the results. I think either wad would be acceptable but for whatever reason the .54 caliber wad seemed to produce a slightly better group at both 75 & 100 yards.

Looks like I'm ready for some big game hunting this fall! I'll probably try some other things after the hunting season to improve even more but for now I think it's good enough. Thank you guy's for all your help. I really appreciate it!
 
CoHiCntry said:
The Ox Yoke wads from Buffalo Arms came in the mail yesterday so I went to the range today!

I started right where I left off using 80 grains of T7, A Remington #11 cap, and a 425 grain Hornady Great Plains bullet. Target was at 75 yards. I used the .54 caliber wads for the first four shots. 3 of the 4 bullets were in a 2" group. One was 3-5" away from the others. (Not sure what happened on that one? If it was me or just a flyer?)

I switched to the .58 caliber wads for four shots and got a 3.5" group. Both groups are much better than what I was getting previously, so I was happy. I decided to move the target back to 100 yards.

I shot three times using the .58 caliber wads and got a 4" group. Not bad! I then switched to the .54 caliber wad for three shots and got a 2.5" group! I was more than happy with the results. I think either wad would be acceptable but for whatever reason the .54 caliber wad seemed to produce a slightly better group at both 75 & 100 yards.

Looks like I'm ready for some big game hunting this fall! I'll probably try some other things after the hunting season to improve even more but for now I think it's good enough. Thank you guy's for all your help. I really appreciate it!


That is great news! Glad you got it shootin good! Nothing wrong with either group for 100 yards from a stock 48 twist!! Good luck on your upcoming hunt!!
 
Thanks! It's nice to have it shooting well going into the hunting seasons. Hopefully I can put some critters on the ground now!
 
CoHiCntry said:
Thanks! It's nice to have it shooting well going into the hunting seasons. Hopefully I can put some critters on the ground now!


i am curious. can you describe what your front sight looks like? My first renegade rifle had a squared front blade sight. I found I could never control the gaps on either side of the blade with the rear sight.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top