Paper Patched bullets for hunting

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Idaholewis

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Never thought I'd get to this point but i sure enough have, i have officially given up on the idea of Paper Patched bullets for Hunting purposes. The few that know me, know i have put in a literal TON of testing this spring/summer (close to 4 pounds of powder worth) through all of my testing i have had glitches pop up that I just can't ignore, so figured i would share my findings, and give possible solutions to the problems i have found. THIS IS IN NO WAY SHAPE NOR FORM INTENDED TO BASH PAPER PATCHED BULLETS, TAKE AWAY CREDIT OF OTHERS, ETC. ETC. This is simply MY PERSONAL findings through LOTS N LOTS of testing, and a fair amount of pocket change :shock: You are free to take this, or leave it. But in NO way is this thread intended to create an Argument, I will gladly discuss it, and answer any questions you might have etc.

I chose to go with bullets that were slightly under bore from the molds i had custom built, after 2 wraps of onion skin paper i wanted them to put me up to/and slightly over bore depending on the paper i used (not all onion skin papers are created equal) then i would push the wrapped bullets through a sizer die that was 1 thou under bore just to 'iron the paper' out, examples being- for my .45 i chose a .449 sizing die, for my .50 i chose .499 (but ended up going .500) and for my .54s i chose .539, Back in the very beginning I Started out with 8s in the sizing dies (.448, .498, and .538) i found them to be to loose for my liking, this also depended on bore size (not all bores are created equal) Example being- out of 4 different .54 Cals i had 2 that needed .539, But was to tight in my other 2 barrels so i had to go .538 in them, it really comes down to a 'per bore' thing if you are looking for the perfect fit, What is the perfect fit? I personally was looking for a fit that was reasonably tight so i could be confident that the bullets would NOT back off the powder charge. I felt like i had the perfect combos per gun that i could get?

Problem no 1 that I encountered- I have had 3 bullets slide off the powder charge, this happened on my 2 mile trip to the local sandpit to shoot, the road going out to the pit is ROUGH with deep pot holes, etc. I drive a Toyota 4WD that feels about like riding on a 2X6 Plank, my rifle sits in a soft gun case between my seats with the barrel pointed down. My routine involves loading my rifle at home so i am ready with my first shot when i get to the pit, before i shoot this first shot i ALWAYS take my range rod and check my bullet to make sure it hasn't backed off the powder charge on the drive? My first bad experience was with my .50 Cal, i checked the bullet with my range rod and i could not get any movement, i capped the rifle, settled in on my bench and took the shot, the rifle went off but sounded odd? And it did not kick me? I immediately grabbed my soft gun case from inside my truck and checked the muzzle end, SURE enough there was my bullet! This particular bullet had slid out of the paper jacket itself, this particular paper was the new stuff you get from the paper mill store, The bullet here was the S&W 500 that i had sized down to .492-.493, 2 wraps of 9# onion skin paper And ran through my .500 sizing die (the bullet loaded reasonably tight and felt really good to me) This new paper you get from the paper mill store today is REALLY slick stuff and is a bit thinner, i have 2 different types of paper, the New stuff i just described, and some old vintage stuff that has a cockle texture finish to it. The old vintage cockle texture paper i have holds on to the bullet good and tight (it is a tiny bit thicker, between 1-1.5 thou thicker) This leads to problem no. 2 i encountered. (I came home the other day and bump tested all 3 of my Green Mountain LRH barrels, i used a rubber door matt folded in 2 so I wouldn't hurt the muzzles, i seated a bullet in each of my barrels and gave them a GOOD SOLID muzzle bump on the doubled rubber pad, EVERY single bullet slid! The worst one was my .54s with big heavy 500 plus grain bullets (I kinda expected this, bumping the muzzle hard with that big heavy bullet is acting like a kinetic bullet puller)

Problem no. 2 that I encountered is Sticking papers, A true paper patched bullet is suppose to shed the paper at the muzzle. I found if i used the new paper from the paper mill store that you get today EVERY single paper would 'Shuck' immediately upon exiting the barrel which is a great thing! (again this stuff is greasy slick) But if i used the old Vintage cockle textured paper i had REALLY BAD problems with the papers sticking to the bullets and making it all the way to, and even through the target! I performed a test between the 2 papers that involved catching the bullets in a sand trap i had built, I think i shot 5 bullets of each paper type (i have this logged down somewhere with pictures) anyway, i found that EVERY single paper from the old vintage cockle skin stuff had stuck to the bullet and made it to the sand trap (even tho you see some paper fly in the air after the shot that does NOT mean that the whole paper jacket 'shucked' away from the bullet, what you are likely seeing is the front half) i found bits and pieces of paper stuck to the bullets, i even found the entire twisted tale paper base stuck to a few of the bases of the bullets, even after traveling through sand! On the contrary i found that EVERY single paper from this new paper mill store paper had 'Shucked' upon exiting the muzzle, i never found 1 single stuck paper to a bullet with this new paper. Here is another kicker/odd deal, I went ahead and shot the KNOWN sticking papers for accuracy out to 100 yards (i figured they would fly all over?) The DARN things shot INCREDIBLE tight Groups of 1-2" at 100 yards EVEN with papers sticking to them? So is this a problem? Maybe not? But it still bothered me, as i felt the papers should be 'shucking' upon exiting.

Problem no. 3 that I encountered is the reload on a fouled bore. All of my shooting has been done from a bench preparing for the upcoming deer, and Elk hunting seasons, load development etc, i have been shooting for best accuracy, and in doing so i ALWAYS swab between shots with a mixture of 50/50 blue windex and 91% isopropyl alcohol for fast drying, This got me to thinking about a reload in a hunting situation? So i recently started mimicking a hunting situation by reloading a fouled bore, as I suspected i had papers tear apart while trying to cram them down a fouled bore, i found paper pieces stuck on my jag after seating the bullet and pulling the range rod, This tells me that the paper is being torn from the bullet on the way down the fouled bore, you have to remember when shooting a tight paper patched bullet you are NOT using any kind of lube so the fouling left behind is ROUGH, unlike a well lubed bullet where the fouling is somewhat soft from the lube, with paper patched bullets the dreaded 'Crud Ring' is REALLY ROUGH (about like sandpaper) due to being bone dry. Try sending a thin paper jacketed bullet down a blackpowder fouled bore without swabbing, the outcome CAN'T be good, and its not from my testing.

In conclusion, I stil plan to shoot paper patched bullets for fun, especially bench type long rang range shooting where i can take the time to swab good between shots, i will especially be shooting the BACO .444-400s in my .45 Cal for long range fun, Paper patched bullets are a really fun bullet to load, near effortless (The weight of the rangerod is almost enough to send them to the powder) For Target shooting there is nothing better in my honest opinion! But i simply do NOT trust them to walk hunt with, And i never will, I elk hunt in rough country, NO road hunting for me, I put a lot of boot leather to the ground, and usually end up in some nasty rough Canyon where Elk call home, The last thing i need to worry about is my bullet sliding off the powder charge, i would drive myself crazy CONSTANTLY checking the bullet with my ramrod.

I have chosen to switch to lubed Maxi type bullets that fit tight. I recently tried some lubed Bullshop bullets, and my Lyman Plains lubed bullets in my Stainless .50 Green Mountain LRH and i was VERY pleased with the results, so much that i am having a mold made from the Bullshop bullet. Accuracy at 50 yards is EVERY bit as good as my paper patched bullets are. And i FULLY trust the Maxi type bullets, they STAY FIRMLY PUT on the powder! Trust in your gear is a HUGE key to success in my opinion, if you do not fully trust your equipment I personally feel you are defeated before you step out of vehicle on your hunt.

Again folks, this is my personal findings through LOTS N LOTS of testing with paper patched bullets, your mileage may vary? Your trusts in paper patched bullets may vary etc. I am in NO WAY trying to talk folks out of shooting paper patched bullets, just sharing my findings. I will ad possible solutions to my problems below in the next post
 
If i were to stick with paper patched bullets for HUNTING, here are possible solutions to the problems i mentioned above. For target shooting this doesn't really apply, you could go with 447, 497, 537 For target shooting i would probably go with the 7s i just mentioned for the extra ease in loading, being on a bench in a controlled environment is a totally different deal than Hunting, UNLESS you are Stand hunting Whitetail (which i very well might do!) My concerns with bullet fit are when walk hunting, again i intentionally hunt rough country for Elk and i want a bullet that i can 100% in MY mind trust that it will stay put.

1- Bullets sliding off the charge. I would advise going full bore size with the sizing die and possibly up 1 thou above, For example in the .50 Cal i would use a .500 minimum sizing die, or possibly better yet a .501 like Idahoron uses. In the .45 i would go with a .450-.451 sizing die, and in .54 i would go .540-.541 (The tricky part here is each bore can/will vary slightly) The best way to go in my opinion is to get a 9 size die (449, 499, 539 check fit and if stil loose, i advise following Buckshot (of Castboolits) tutorial on opening up a sizer die 1 or 2 Thou, go SLOOOOOW here and continually check fit) Say you go with a .451 sizing die in the beginning for your .45 Cal and it ends up being to tight for your bore? You can NOT fix this, you are then stuck with a die you can not use, this is why i say to go with a 9 and open it up if needed, this way you can make a custom fit to the bore of your rifle.

2- Papers sticking to the bullet during flight. I would advise going with the new onion skin paper from the paper mill store, this stuff is REALLY slick, i took a full sized .502-.503 Lee S&W 500 bullet straight from the mold, wrapped it with 2 wraps of this new paper and ran it through my .500 sizing die (so I wasn't just ironing the paper here, i was actually sizing the bullet as well) even after pinching the paper this hard against the bullet i could stil grip the paper jacket and slide the bullet in it (you will NOT do this with the cockle finish paper, I GAURANTEE ya!) again this new paper from the paper mill store is REALLY SLICK stuff! I personally would avoid the old vintage cockle texture onion skin paper, this stuff is where my paper sticking problems came from, this stuff really grips and holds on to the bullet, it holds to well in my experience/testing. The new stuff from the paper mill store that i tested worked VERY WELL at shedding the paper upon exiting the muzzle, i never found a single stuck paper in all of my testing with this stuff, BUT this is also the paper i was using when the S&W 500 bullet slid out of my barrel and i found it in my gun case

3- Reloading on a fouled bore WITHOUT tearing your paper. I would advise that you carry some pre soaked alcohol patches with you in a sealed vial/container of some sort? After you take your shot, my advise is to take the extra minute to swab the barrel out MUZZLE pointed DOWN, then run at least 1 dry patch through, better yet 2 dry patches, Then reload. I know this takes an extra minute that could be crucial, BUT if you shove a paper patched bullet down a fouled bore you will more than likely tear the paper all to pieces.

I hope this helps
 
Let there be light! These fast twist Green Mountain Barrels like tight fitting Grease groove bullets every bit as good as my paper patched bullets! After the issues i had with my paper patched bullets i had decided I wasn't gonna chance hunting with my Muzzleloaders this year, The other day I decided what the heck I'd try some Maxi type fit bullets that i was 100% confident would stay put on the powder charge, they shot DARN GOOD! This restored my faith, i will be hunting with my Muzzleloaders this year, in a tight fitting grease groove kinda way!


Here is a group with my Lyman Plains bullet, i tried pushing them to hard at first and they didn't like it, i backed off the powder charge and used a VERY overbore sized wool wad (cause its all i had with me) this is 50 yards, but i have no doubt now they are gonna shoot!


This is a bullet from Bullshop, this bullet weighed in at 460 grains, it shoots AWESOME! And fits good n tight!


Here is a picture of the Bullshop bullets, i asked permission from Dan of Bullshop to try and copy his mold and he gave me the thumbs up! I sent 1 of these bullets to Tom at Accurate Molds to try his best and duplicate it for me
 
Louis,

I know you have put a lot of time ,thought and cash into shooting paper patch bullets. I can certainly see the concerns you would have in the type of hunting situations you have. I have only recently started experimenting with these type of loads so don't have a lot to contribute other than I could definitely see a problem with paper tearing on a second shot if you didn't wipe the bore after the first.

I have done a lot of shooting and hunting with bore sized bullets with lube simular to the one you are playing with now. All though I would prefer to wipe the bore between shots I have purposely taken several fast 3 shot groups at 100 yards without wiping just to see the accuracy. My findings with a 45 caliber Omega with bullets sized to .450 have given me several groups around 2" which is plenty good for my hunting situations.
 
I didn't see where you listed what caliber the bullets you were using from the Bullshop but I do know Accurate Molds does have a good selection 50 caliber and a few 45 caliber molds available. Of course if you have one made to your specifications we will have another option to choose from.
 
Saxtonyoung said:
Louis,

I know you have put a lot of time ,thought and cash into shooting paper patch bullets. I can certainly see the concerns you would have in the type of hunting situations you have. I have only recently started experimenting with these type of loads so don't have a lot to contribute other than I could definitely see a problem with paper tearing on a second shot if you didn't wipe the bore after the first.

I have done a lot of shooting and hunting with bore sized bullets with lube simular to the one you are playing with now. All though I would prefer to wipe the bore between shots I have purposely taken several fast 3 shot groups at 100 yards without wiping just to see the accuracy. My findings with a 45 caliber Omega with bullets sized to .450 have given me several groups around 2" which is plenty good for my hunting situations.


I have enjoyed every minute of shooting paper patched bullets, from the custom molds i had made, to the long range bullets i bought from BACO, I am a total tinkerer, i even enjoy cutting the papers! LOL! I love experimenting with new things, every now and then something off the wall wierd actually works! And then there's the failures, a good example of EXTREME failure in my findings was lead hardness, i had no idea how important it actually was/is? My good friend Idahoron always told me that it was important, MAN WAS HE EVER RIGHT! Try shooting some hard 9-9.5BHN bullets in a stock 1:48 twist Renegade/Hawken, i had bullets hit the ground, bounce up and bust my target frame! You might see the grass part ways on one shot, then see the dust fly on the bank above the target the next shot? And this was usually only 50 yards just for testing purposes, WILD!!

I am DEFINITELY not done shooting paper patched bullets, But as i have stated i just don't trust them for MY PERSONAL style of hunting, Elk hunting that is, When i elk hunt i go to every extreme necessary, that usually entails ending up in some awful Butt crack of a Canyon in the earth where Elk call home, lots n lots of this country i hunt it's hard enough getting your body through it, then ad a long rifle and it gets a whole lot tougher! The last thing i need to worry about is a bullet possibly sliding off the powder charge and costing me an opportunity at an Elk, and then there's the fear of possibly ringing my barrel if a bullet had slid half way down the barrel and i took a shot without knowing. I have read a bunch on that, and supposedly it is a very real deal and can happen? I would be sick to miss a bull of a lifetime, and possibly ruin one of my beloved GM LRH barrels to boot!!

I hope that I haven't deterred anyone from trying paper patched bullets, they are truly a HOOT TO SHOOT! I just wanted to share my personal feelings on them for MY PERSONAL style of hunting, I believe a tight fitting grease groove bullet is a much better and more dependable route for me. A paper patched bullet can definitely be made to fit tight if a guy does what i said above about opening up a sizing die and taylor fitting a bullet to the bore of your particular rifle. I am actually thinking about doing this with my .45 Cal and hunting deer with it, carrying a few moist alcohol patches in a little container is no big deal, we carry plenty of other stuff to shoot these black powder rifles right? What's an extra little container gonna hurt? I believe it is important if you want that second shot to be DEAD ON DEPENDABLE. It is amazing how nasty your barrel gets from 1 single shot, and like i said with these paper patched bullets the fouling is BONE DRY and REALLY ROUGH compared to the soft fouling from a Greased bullet, So trying to shove a tight fitting paper jacketed bullet down a fouled bore is a sure way to tear that paper jacket all to pieces, I have tested it! Is that shot gonna be Accurate? Maybe? But then again Maybe not? If i were dispatching a possible wounded animal i want more confidence than that
 
Saxtonyoung said:
I didn't see where you listed what caliber the bullets you were using from the Bullshop but I do know Accurate Molds does have a good selection 50 caliber and a few 45 caliber molds available. Of course if you have one made to your specifications we will have another option to choose from.


Saxton, The Bullshop bullets that i recently shot so well are listed as .504-460 I was worried about them being tough to load, but they were not, i had no problems at all pushing them in with my thumb, no doubt they are soft lead, Dan of Bullshop had the Grooves of this bullet designed with a Taper for easier loading. I wish i had taken a good picture of that last bullet i had after i cleaned it up really good before sending to Tom at Accurate Molds, It is a well thought out design. The bottom 2 bands are .504, the 3rd band is .506, and the top band is .507, The bullets fit GOOD N TIGHT, and as you can see they shot AWESOME in my 1:28 Twist Stainless GM Barrel. I got an email yesterday from Tom, he has the bullet listed in his Catalog now and my order has been placed, He made a change to the bottom band, he added a taper in the picture he drew up to match the other tapered bands, I decided against that since the Original Bullshop Bullet does not have it on the base, i told Tom i would rather mimic the Bullshop bullet as closely as possible. I will be shooting this bullet a BUNCH as quick as i get the mold, My friend Harleysboss recently ordered a mold and had it in a week, i know Tom is fast and makes an AWESOME mold, second to none in my opinion. I will post my results as i quick as i get it
 
Louis,

I never tried a tapered bullet that would engrave while loading ,all mine were simply bore sized.

What is the catalog number of your new mold ,I would love to take a look at it.
 
Aren't the TC Maxi balls smaller at the bottom to ease in loading? I cast .32's and they measure a bit smaller.
 
Saxtonyoung said:
Louis,

I never tried a tapered bullet that would engrave while loading ,all mine were simply bore sized.

What is the catalog number of your new mold ,I would love to take a look at it.

It is Catalog #51-450M, i also ordered a Mold for my 2 Fast Twist .54 Cal Rifles, it is Catalog #54-510M, On #54-510M i had the bottom 2 bands cut to .539 the 3rd band .541, and the top band .544
 
Magnum said:
Aren't the TC Maxi balls smaller at the bottom to ease in loading? I cast .32's and they measure a bit smaller.


Yes they are, I just poured up some .45 Cal Maxi balls to try in my .45 Cal Green Mountain LRH barrel, the 45 GM LRH Twist rate is 1:30, where as the .50 and .54 GM LRH barrels are 1:28 Twist. It will be interesting to see how they do, i kinda have my doubts, but i wont know til i try. If they do end up shooting good, the 240 Grain Maxi ball out of this .45 Should make an AWESOME deer hunting setup! I plan to eventually have a full bore mold cut for this 45 as well
 
I relined a TC SS Firehawk down to .32,1-30 , and shoot paper patched Maxi balls with 20 grns.T-7,wool wads. The rifle is scary accurate at 100 yards. I can shoot that gun all day long.
 
That's a fine looking bullet. Since it has a tapered design, what will be your method of lubrication. I'm use to just running a straight sided bullet through a RCBS Sizer die while applying some Lyman Black Power Gold lube.
 
Saxtonyoung said:
That's a fine looking bullet. Since it has a tapered design, what will be your method of lubrication. I'm use to just running a straight sided bullet through a RCBS Sizer die while applying some Lyman Black Power Gold lube.


I am using Gatfeo No. 1 bullet lube. The one thing about lubed bullets is messy! I have chosen to pre lube my Bullet's thus far, I'd rather do it at home than mess with it during the loading process. This Gatfeo is good stuff! I break a piece off and smash it up good, then roll it into a string/rope, kinda like play dough back in day, then push it in the Lube grooves. I can REALLY tell the difference swabbing between shots from my paper patched bullets to these Lubed bullets, it is literally night and day different! With these lubed bullets the fouling is fairly soft, with my paper patched bullets the fouling is bone dry and REALLY rough, especially the crud ring, like i said above if you try and reload a paper patched bullet in a hunting situation on a fouled bore without swabbing, Paper Failure awaits you! You will tear the paper jacket to pieces
 
I have the same mold as Lewis. I have just got all my pieces together to try my hand at pan lubing them. I've got an old crock pot to melt the lube. I may try just dipping the bullets one at a time. I will experiment to see what works best for me.
 
I have never had a paper tear off the bullet on a reload. I think several things come into play when it comes to losing the paper off the bullet on a reload. First is bullets hardness, Next paper composition, what type of powder, and the type of steel in the barrel.
One of the guys that I helped with his rifle had a Hot Rod Hawken Blued 50. That barrel was so rough inside that he had to use lube on the paper when it was clean. What we did was used chapstick to the paper as it was loaded. It was a clean and easy procedure for him to do. I never tested that rifle for how many reloads he could do but my guess is how rough that barrel was he could have lost the paper on it. That would have been a possibility.

Shooting a fouled barrel was a part of the load development process for me and I still test it regularly when shooting.
This picture was actually very early in the process of load development. I had not yet started to harden the bullets a little bit. This was with my Renegade and the Lee 500 S&W bullets sized to .501

The first and second shots were high right and I moved the sights, it was indicated on the picture. After those first two shots I did not make any more sight changes. After the sight changes I did not clean between shots at all.

The next one was shot number 1 for the group and it was in the orange dot. Shot number two was left of the dot. Shot 3 was left and a little low. Shot 4 was still a little to the left and this time high. Shot 5 was the last shot that I felt was still acceptable in a hunting situation. It was center but 3" high. The first 4 shots in the group was a 1.57" group at 100 yards.

tGiON67.jpg



I haven't did that since with 5 shots for that rifle. As part of my training for hunting I regularly shoot two to three shots without cleaning just to be sure that everything is good to go. I have never had a paper fail pushing down a dirty barrel.
 
Harleysboss said:
I have the same mold as Lewis. I have just got all my pieces together to try my hand at pan lubing them. I've got an old crock pot to melt the lube. I may try just dipping the bullets one at a time. I will experiment to see what works best for me.

If your going to just dip them you will need to leave them in the lube long enough to get the bullet warm. If you just go in and back out with the bullet the cold bullet will have a gob of excess lube on it.
 
Ron, I wonder if your Pyrodex P Powder leaves less crud? And, Or is a softer fouling? All of my testing has been done with Real Black powder, Swiss 2 and 3F, they claim it fouls less? But i will tell you now it leaves a ROUGH DRY fouling! The only experience i have with Pyrodex powder was in your Hotrod .45 rifle when you and i shot together here, i cant remember what it looked/felt like when you swabbed the few times we shot? I can tell you for certain that my papers tear up trying to push them down a fouled bore in my .45, i gave that barrel 200 Strokes with Montana Extreme bore polishing compound (equivalent, or maybe better than JB?) before i ever shot the barrel the first time, Conservatively speaking I have shot at least 100 shots through this 45 barrel this Spring/Summer with my Paper Patched bullets, further polishing the barrel, it is truly like a mirror inside. When i swab between shots it is a VERY dry rough fouling, As to be expected the crud ring area is especially rough, its like a sand paper feel in that 2" or so area, i have to give my range rod a HARD push to break thru it, I've actually backed up an inch or so and rammed the crud ring a few times to break through it! And After i run my 2-3 dry patches thru i turn my rifle up with the barrel pointed down and bump it a few times, I usually always get a small amount of dry debris to trickle out of the barrel, i start doing this after 3-4 shots. This super rough fouling that i deal with is what got me to thinking about a reload with these paper patched bullets in a fouled bore? When i tried it the bullet was obviously TIGHT from the get go and all the way down (remember i am sizing .449 in my .45 and you are sizing .446 in yours, so your .45 Loads noticeably easier than mine) and when i got down to the crud ring it was a similar feel to loading/starting a TIGHT fitting Maxi ball, i had to push HARD to seat the bullet on the powder, when i pulled the range rod i had paper pieces stuck to the Jag, how much of it tore off? I obviously have no idea as it's impossible to see. I can't remember the paper i was using when i tested that? I only have 2 types, one is an old Cockle texture stuff that is a tiny bit thicker than the paper mill stuff of today, a friend in Utah sent me quite a bit of this old cockle texture stuff, and the other paper i have is the new stuff from the Paper mill store that you get today, wood fiber I believe?

The ONLY thing i can think of is Pyrodex P is softer fouling, and or less fouling?
 
Ron, i just now noticed the testing you done was in your .50 Cal, You size them through a .501 and i size my .50 Cal through either .499 or .500, Beings you can reload that tight a bullet in a fouled bore without tearing your papers DEFINITELY tells me that your fouling is nowhere near as rough as mine! It cant even be close to the same! Mine is ROUGH, DRY ROUGH! I wish we lived closer and could test this! I thought about trying a can of Pyro P, but felt like I'd be going backwards? Maybe not? With your 45 patched bullets being ran thru a .446 sizer and fitting as loose as they do i would suspect a fouled bore reload wouldn't be much a problem in it, but your .50 is TIGHT, It has to be a difference in Fouling? What else could it be?

I shot some 240 Grain Maxi balls today in my .45 With 50 Grains of Swiss 3F, accuracy at 50-60 yards was GOOD! And recoil was something to :D about!! I need to push them out to 150 yards or so and see if they stil hold up good or not? I did notice something odd tho, they actually loaded WAAAAY easier than I expected a Maxi to load? The bottom and middle band measure .450 and the top Driving band measured .455, they started out ok, but about half way down they got pretty darn easy, way to easy for my liking/trusting. I loaded easy, thinking since my barrel is a fast twist that if i went to fast it might strip the driving band? But even going an inch at a time SLOWLY i hit a point where they went with very little effort? Fouling was soft and easy to swab between shots, from the Lube of course. At least now i know to go bigger with my Custom Grease groove mold for this rifle.
 

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