50 cal bore size recommendations

What would the most perfect bore and groove size and twist be for a 50 cal fast twist?
Looking to try paper patching and try shooting some longer distances for Idaho.
If you paper patch, do you still get the leading with a fast twist?

I haven't seen the perfect bore yet!
I've never experienced leading in a ML with PP. With PP, keep your groove depth shallow if you can - same as Rigby, Metford did in the mid-1800's - 0.003-0.004" depth per groove.
As for twist, I'll assume you're shooting a lead 50 cal conical of weight in the 500 range (if HP 450gr range)? With this I'd do a 1:20 - 1:26 twist. Reason I say that - I had an original English sporing rifle 50 1:20 that did very well out to 300 with a 500gr bullet. I've also had success with a T/C Encore 1:28 (with 4x scope) shooting a 500gr HP - although I could never get this one to shoot better than 1" at 100 - that's why I'd go a little faster than 1:28.

viking said:

What would the most perfect bore and groove size and twist be for a 50 cal fast twist?
Looking to try paper patching and try shooting some longer distances for Idaho.
If you paper patch, do you still get the leading with a fast twist?

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No leading with Paper Patch bullets. Really depends on what exactly you want to do, Hunt or Punch targets long range? For a hunting rifle the 1:28 Twist has proven itself time and time again, it works, and works VERY well!

My Stainless .50 Cal Green Mountain LRH 1:28 twist Barrel has shallow Grooves, i dont know the exact Groove depth? But i would say 0.004, maybe 0.005 Max like 52bore said. My bore diameter is .500, As far as longer ranges with my .50 Cal, i just haven’t been there with .50 Cal yet. 200 yards is the farthest I have shot my .50 Cal. Accuracy was AWESOME for me at 200, i filled my Doe Tag with it, but haven’t shot it since. .50 Cal and REALLY long range (300 plus) just doesn’t interest me a bunch. I have made my 2 .45s my ‘Pet’ Long range rifles, i have been to 500 yards with my 1:30 Twist .45, And plan to take that a BUNCH farther this spring/summer with the new 1:18 Twist .45 Cal that my Close friend Idahoron Gifted me.

Idahoron has successfully taken the 1:28 twist .50 Cal out to 300 yards with peep sights, Ron uses the Lee S&W 500 bullet wrapped with 2 wraps of 9# onion skin paper and sized to .501, Ron has been killing Big Game with that bullet for a VERY LONG time now, it is WELL proven over n over!! I use a very similar bullet to Ron’s, but have yet to prove mine beyond 200 yards. I advise you to get in touch with Ron, Watch his YouTube videos, Ron has an AWESOME channel! If you plan to hunt with your .50 Cal and reach out to 300 yards, Mr. Idahoron can NO DOUBT get you there!! Until i have more time with my .50 Cal at longer ranges I really can’t help ya, i would be guessing. If it is Targets you want to shoot i would advise AGAINST both mine and Ron’s hunting bullets, For targets my advise would be to go with Buffalo Arms .492 450 to 550 Grain PP bullets, they are a very precise bullet as they are swaged and not hand casted, they are a cupped base paper patch target bullet.

Thank you, 52 bore and Idaholewis, for replying to my post.
I respect your opinnions immensely. You gentleman are awesome to share all the great knowledge you have acquired. I hope someday I will meet both of you so I can shake your hands.

52 bore, I've read some of the amazing shooting you have done; you must be steady as a rock. My GOAL with my tc encore is to get to 1" at 100.
I was hoping someone would suggest a twist near 1:20. I wanted to shoot paper with something other than lead for longer range targets
and a lead setup with the same gun for hunting Idaho. I was only expecting 150-200 yards with lead from someone like Buffalo Arms Co.
Perfect bore was great attension grabber!

Idaholewis, I have watched all the youtube videos I could find on Idahoron. I believe he shoots a TC Hot Rod Hawkens with a ss barrel and a Renegade.
I have been watching for those guns or a Green Mountain LRH for a year without any luck so I thought maybe I could have one built similar.
Thanks again for the great suggestion on bullets. It seems you and Ron have gotten a lot of people very very interested in pp and #11 ignition.

viking said:

Thank you, 52 bore and Idaholewis, for replying to my post.
I respect your opinnions immensely. You gentleman are awesome to share all the great knowledge you have acquired. I hope someday I will meet both of you so I can shake your hands.

52 bore, I've read some of the amazing shooting you have done; you must be steady as a rock. My GOAL with my tc encore is to get to 1" at 100.
I was hoping someone would suggest a twist near 1:20. I wanted to shoot paper with something other than lead for longer range targets
and a lead setup with the same gun for hunting Idaho. I was only expecting 150-200 yards with lead from someone like Buffalo Arms Co.
Perfect bore was great attension grabber!

Idaholewis, I have watched all the youtube videos I could find on Idahoron. I believe he shoots a TC Hot Rod Hawkens with a ss barrel and a Renegade.
I have been watching for those guns or a Green Mountain LRH for a year without any luck so I thought maybe I could have one built similar.
Thanks again for the great suggestion on bullets. It seems you and Ron have gotten a lot of people very very interested in pp and #11 ignition.

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viking, As you might know Rice barrels is now making Drop ins for the TC Hawken, and Renegade, The Oregon Barrel Co will also make a drop in barrel with your desired twist, I don’t think you could go wrong with either Co. i have heard great things about both. The old Green Mountain LRH barrels are getting harder and harder to come by, tho i did recently see 2 different Stainless .50 LRH Barrels sell on ebay from the same seller, so they are definitely out there! The .45 LRH is the easier of 3 LRH barrels to come by, with the .54 Cal being the most difficult. I feel very fortunate to have found, and own all of them, 2 in which were brand new unfired, and the other 2 coming from men that know Muzzleloaders VERY well, Idahoron, and Dave Anderson (Cayugad) i have 4 GM fast twist Drop in barrels counting the 1:18 Twist 32” .451 bore drop in barrel that Idahoron recently gave me, which might actually be the rarest of all 4 come to think of it?

I am not familiar with the TC encore (or any inline for that matter) 1:28 twist i take it? If so i have no doubt it would shoot either mine or Ron’s PP bullet very well, and either of them are a very fine hunting bullet! But again I haven’t tested my bullet beyond 200 yards, where Ron has proven the Lee S&W 500 bullet Paper Patched all the way out to 300 yards, 300 yards is a Loooong poke for an Old Sidelock with open sights and a Big wide Meplat Hunting bullet! I’m not sure a guy could realistically ask much more from a hunting bullet? Even tho the S&W 500 bullet has proven itself accurate to 300 yards that is just to far to ethically shoot at Big Game with open sights in my opinion, but it’s sure nice to know the bullet/load is capable of doing so as long as you do your part. It truly amazes me what these old rifles are capable of once you get the load dialed in and practice it! As you must know here in Idaho on Muzzleloader only hunts we are not allowed to use optics, Sabots, and 209 primers which is what REALLY makes the Inline rifles shine, On Muzzleloader only hunts here in Idaho with our restrictions I simply don’t see any benefit in an inline rifle (hence why I don’t own a single inline) although I do plan to own a nice old SS Knight MK85 someday just for the fact that they are an iconic old inline rifle that was really ahead of its time. I have no interest in the new high tech inlines of today, once you take away all the ‘goodies’ and bring them down on the same playing field as the Old Sidelocks setup like Ron’s and Mine i just don’t see any advantage in them? At that point why not use a more traditional looking Muzzleloader like we do? I guess thats why they make different color socks? Not everyone likes the same color. Don’t get me wrong I fully respect the Inline guy’s for their dedication and love of the sport, i have learned a lot from these guy’s. I think we can all help eachother in certain ways. It’s all about getting out and having fun, making smoke, no matter what you drive!

Idaholewis,
I have 3 inlines (Omega, Rem 700ml and TC encore) and all are fun to shoot, but there is nothing like the drop of the hammer on my old TC hawkens.
The sweet touching of the trigger after I have set the first trigger.
I bought my Hawkens in the early 70's but never developed the accuracy I was looking for.
Now my stock has cracked and I will need to replace it also. Another project for another day.
First project is to find a new TC and buy ss barrels. Does anyone ever switch out 45 and 50 cal barrel in the same gun?
If I so shoot the s&w 500 pp, will I need a .501 bore? Thank so much for your time..viking

Doc White used almost entirely 1-24 in his 50cals. Pedersoli still uses 1-24 also for 50cal conical/sabot shooters. According to Doc a 1-24 will shoot a 600gr conical just fine. One of our members from Europe has a Pedersoli in a 50cal 1-24. His will also shoot the jumbo slugs very well. GMBs Sharpshooter barrels were 1-24.

See the trend?

GM54-120 said:

GMBs Sharpshooter barrels were 1-24

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This is the EXTREME ELUSIVE barrel! One could grow a REALLY REALLY looong beard waiting to find one of these on the For Sale Block :lol: So actually i don’t own all of the GM Fast Twist Drop in barrels, I forgot about the Sharpshooter. And I was the one that recently started a thread about them :d'oh!:

Its hard to argue with the White 504s accuracy and near cult like following. Them shallow groove 1-24s flat out shoot big conicals even if the owners are a bit goofy.

GM is offering round .50 ct rifled barrels. 1-24 twist. these would make a really good heavy conical barrel. They would be along the same as the old sharps 50-90. I have shot high as 650 grn. PP bullets from 1-24 twist barrel. Very good accuracy. A 600 grn. with 105 grns. Swiss 1.5 will get close to 1300 fps

Brux offers a .500x510 in both SS and chromoly in cut rifling too. Price is very close to the GMBs. You might even be able to get a slightly better price for a raw blank like the GMB 1-24.
http://bruxbarrels.com/downloads/orderform.pdf

These blanks are great for DIYers but those droppins from Rice or Oregon are really hard to beat when you start adding up all the costs.

viking said:

Thank you, 52 bore and Idaholewis, for replying to my post.
I respect your opinnions immensely.
My GOAL with my tc encore is to get to 1" at 100.

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You already have the rifle you need to achieve your goal.
The 7.5# rifle damn near won the entire match! First May In-line match in 2013. Finished 2nd, top 5 shooters (except me) were shooting customs.

Had never shot the gun past 200, hit all animals including the pigs at 330yds. I just had to take the photo when resetting/repainting the pigs.
You can do it!

Viking, Are you planning to use a scope on your rifle? If so, That would make your goal of 1” at 100 yards VERY EASY!! As long as you have ‘Known Ability’ to shoot well. Just remember here in Idaho on Muzzleloader only hunts we can NOT use a scope

I have thought about mounting a scope on all of my Muzzleloading rifles MANY MANY TIMES just during load development, and once i figured out what the rifle needs to shoot at its best, I would then get rid of the scope and go back to my open sights. A scope changes the WHOLE game BIG TIME! Making it ridiculously easy! Again, That is if you have ‘Known ability’ to shoot well

I have resisted mounting a scope since we can NOT legally use them on Muzzleloader only hunts here in Idaho, It would be WAY to easy for me to become dependent on a Scope, making it VERY difficult to transition back to open sights.

I have seen guys that couldn’t hit the side of a barn with a proven 1/2 MOA Rifle, The simple fact is not everyone has the ability to shoot, i don’t mean that in a bad sarcastic way, it’s a fact.

Yep, I would LOVE to mount a Scope on this new 18 twist .451 ‘Business Rifle’ But I’m afraid of becoming dependent on it. Since i started shooting open sights with these old Sidelocks i dont even like to pick up my Centerfires and look through the Scopes anymore.

Here is My last outing with my .308 After installing a new Bix’ N Andy 2 Stage Ball Bearing Trigger, Fun, but definitely not very challenging. This is a typical target for my .308, it will pretty much drill a single hole as long as you do your part. The most enjoyment i have with Centerfires is Load development, once i get them figured out they become boring, i have sold, and Traded MANY 1/2 MOA rifles over the years.

What does my above post have to do with this thread? SCOPES, They are a MAJOR Game changer

The toughest part for me with open sights during load development in these Old Muzzleloaders is Constantly wondering if a bad outing was Me that day? Or was it the Rifle/Load? A scope would change that!

Thing is if you shoot them that way . You get so you kind of know if it is you or the load is bad. Iron sights that is

45cal said:

Thing is if you shoot them that way . You get so you kind of know if it is you or the load is bad. Iron sights that is

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45cal, I fully agree! I am solid enough from a Bench that when i turn out a horrible Group i feel fairly confident it was the Rifle/Load (But there’s stil that little thought in the back of my mind, was it me this time? Was i slightly off on my sight picture each shot?) My eyesight is definitely not as good as it was when i was 20, i Cut my right eyeball working in the woods years ago, my eye actually leaked and collapsed, stitches were required through the Cornea (color of my eye) i was lucky I didn’t lose my eye! The older i get the more that eye struggles, and of course that is my shootin/sight eye. But i have found with a peep when i am forced to narrow my vision down to look through the little hole i can see CRISP AGAIN! Now regular open sights is a DISASTER for me, that is why EVERY Muzzleloader i own sports a peep sight. But MAN O MAN a nice 4.5-14 Scope would sure be nice though! I just don’t want to get myself use to it, i plan to shoot some really long range peep sight stuff this spring/summer, i need to keep diligent with my peep setups, I take my BPCR insert caddy with me each time to the range and play with different apertures til i find that ‘perfect’ sight picture for the particular target i am shooting that day, the lighting, target color etc. all play a huge roll in it! Where a scope makes it SLEEZY EASY!

My post to Viking was about the gun/load. There were nearly 30 shooters at the 1st in-line match and 1/2 the group stopped after the paper portion because the conditions were terrible and so was their shooting/load. They all had scopes.. This included Knight, White, etc..

52Bore said:

My post to Viking was about the gun/load. There were nearly 30 shooters at the 1st in-line match and 1/2 the group stopped after the paper portion because the conditions were terrible and so was their shooting/load. They all had scopes.. This included Knight, White, etc..

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52bore, I have nothing in the world against scopes, matter of fact I ABSOLUTELY love them, the higher the quality and more variable power the better! Not taking ANYTHING away from your pic above, You were all on the same playing field with Scoped rifles. As you obviously know, Had you all been using Open sights it would of made that same shoot a BUNCH more challenging. I reread the OP’s post and couldn’t find anything about a scope? But he mentions hunting here in Idaho, I’m guessing he would know the rules here? But just in case he didn’t i figured i would fill him in. If his rifle is scoped he can only hunt the general firearm season here, he could also use 209 primers, and Sabots in the General season. But he can NOT hunt with ANY of those things in a Muzzleloader only hunt.

And if his rifle is scoped i am confident i could send him a little package of a few different bullets/OP Wads, Card Combos, And get his Goal 1” Group at 100 yards, With a scope AND ‘Known ability to shoot’ that is not a difficult task this day and age with the rifles available to us, pretty much every manufacturer today has MOA accuracy claims that they stand behind, and with a little work in load development you will usually get it.

52bore, if i had your skills/Ingenuity i would build some kind of a Scope mount that clamped to 1” flats or something like that? With a built in Picatinny rail, So i could easily swap it from gun to gun, Probably a pistol type scope for that amount of extended eye relief? I think it would be ABSOLUTELY AWESOME for load development, once i got the load dialed in for the particular rifle i was working with i would unclamp the scope and go back to my open sights and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, Knowing 100% sure that the load is right

GM54-120 As excited as those White rifle owners are about their guns makes me want one too... I'm going to have to have a Super 91.
I didn't know they were 1:24. I hear Brux is a great barrel. Is .500x510 still considers a shallow groove?
THX !

52 bore Did you cut off the QLA? I think a lot of people would love to shoot as awesome as you! Wow and THX !

Idaholewis NO scope on this gun... I want #11 percussion on a ss fast twist gun.
I will try s&w500 or 492 buffalo bullets with a wad and either Pyrodex pistol powder or maybe Swiss.
I have a Williams sight and Lee shavers insert ordered and in the mail as we post.
My latest purchase was my Omega and it had Williams peep sights on it and I love shooting that sight.
As for my shooting ability, I think I can hold my own on a bench.
I stopped at the pawn shop today when I was in Bemidji but they only had an old springfield hawkens and a Connecticut plunger gun.
THX !
viking