!!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??????

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

Missing petals is NOT a sign of sabot failure. A failed sabot is drilled. The center is blown out and/or its totally mangled. MMP Orange sabots for example nearly always lose petals but shoot fine for me. The Harvesters that failed were drilled/mangled and bullets were key-holing on the target. I was pushing them hard with a heavy hardcast 260gr 40cal.

I like the 200gr SST aka Shockwave too. I shoot them far faster in my custom smokeless 45cal (over 2600fps). They are a bit fragile at this speed so i stick to boiler room shots. The Barnes 40cal 195gr is better "terminally" but the 200gr SST is wonderfully accurate and flies a bit better. Luke at Smokelessmz.com is about the only person i know that sells the 40-200gr SST in bulk without sabots. Hornady does not sell them separately.

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

Thanks for the description of a failed sabot. I have not experienced this type of failure. Over 2600 fps - that's just a bit less then my 30-06 (I down load), in fact I would not even use a center fire with that velocity in a muzzle loader.

I will check out Luke at Smokelessmz.com as I am currently running low on 200 g shockwaves and there are none in the local gun shops.

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

A 30-06 200gr over 2600fps is a fairly hot load according to Nosler and IMR load data. I would hardly consider it down loaded. Its about max from Nosler (2688fps) and pretty much over max data from IMR.

http://www.nosler.com/30-06-springfield

http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/30-06-2005apr03.php
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

My load is actually pretty far from max but i dont have a need for more fps. If i did, i would be using the Barnes 195gr simply because it holds together better and would take down any non dangerous NA big game with ease.

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

Sorry, I did not intend to give the impression that I was shooting Nosler 200 g bullets in my 30-06. I shoot the 150 g Nosler partition. 57 g IMR 4350 which gives (by the book) 2880 fps although my Chronograph gives me 30-40 more. This is plenty fast for me and very accurate. I have killed a couple of deer at 350 yards with this load. Shooting from a box which is almost like a bench.

I even go light in my 300 Ultra Mag despite its having a break - Nosler 165 g. The reason being is that I had a bad flinch at one time from a 7mm Mag. I am over the flinch but found lighter bullets recoil less and for me less recoil means better accuracy flatter trajectory and shot placement. I may work up a load but its not a keeper until I test its terminal ballistics on a deer.

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

For the money, I don't think you can beat the Speer DeepCurls with respect to terminal performance. They are tough bullets that expand well and blast through the deer. I have only recovered one and it was solely by luck - found it on the snow after it killed a doe.

The downside is that for the last year or so they have been near impossible to find. Right now the .44/240 and the .45/300 are available at Natchez. Run, don't walk to your computer and pick some up.

http://www.natchezss.com/index.cfm

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

SteveH said:

For the money, I don't think you can beat the Speer DeepCurls with respect to terminal performance............

Click to expand...

The 300g Speer Deep Curl has worked very very well for me on several deer. Seems like they expand real fast, and then stay together, and penetrate deep. More than one deer i have seen killed, had over 1" entrance holes in the ribs, excessive damage to the innards, and over 2" exit holes out. Bullets captured with water filled milk jugs show excellent weight retention, and the lead is indeed truly bonded to the jacket. The bullet also seems to work at both fast, and slow speeds.

Yes, i certainly agree with SteveH! Other qualities of this bullet are, it is accurate, and it flies good. Also, the published ballistic coefficient is quite correct in my shooting experience.

Following is a small collection of them bullet captured at the noted range.

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

Just wondering what is the general consensus on a bullet passing all the way through or remaining in the animal?

Good blood trail on a pass through or all the energy expended on the game animal and a recovered bullet perhaps lodged on the far side under the hide?

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

Mtns2Hunt said:

Just wondering what is the general consensus on a bullet passing all the way through or remaining in the animal?

Is it better to have a Good blood trail on a pass through or all the energy expended on the game animal and a recovered bullet perhaps lodged on the far side under the hide?

Click to expand...

My 2 bit definition of a good hunting bullet...

The Hunting bullet should be the most lethal big game hunting bullet available. The bullet design should allow the bullet to penetrate 2” to 3”, through bone or tissue, before it starts to expand the petals. After the bullet starts to expand or shed it petals it should adversely affect all the surrounding internal organs. The combination between the expansion of the bullet and/or release of the petals and the creation of hydrostatic shock produces a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that can be 13” to 15” long. I believe that in most case the bullet should pass through the body providing a secondary exit hole for blood and debris. This massive wound cavity results in the animal dropping fast since most go into shock after such a tremendous blow. Those animals that don’t go down immediately will soon succumb to blood pressure loss and/or organ failure producing a quick ethical kill. Using a bullet matching this description will normally result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot.

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

Very good description of terminal performance. Finding a bullet that will perform in such a manner is difficult at varied velocities and ranges. Some will open up too fast and some will not open up at all and only punch through. Hitting bone with almost any projectile will open up the wound channel causing much damage and possible fragmentation. Hitting in the chest cavity will almost always create a pass through and blood loss may depend on a high or low hit. Even a mid level hit and pass through may not create much blood loss. I am not sure how much hydrostatic shock is created on a pass through to the chest cavity.

Many deer no matter where they are hit will run - good shot placement is essential but they do still run. They will also probably die but recovering your game in the least amount of time with minimal effort still depends on the amount of damage and energy expended on the animal.

It appears to me a pass through is similar to shooting a deer with a bow: more dependent on bleeding lung deflation and some shock. Hitting bone with the projectile simulates a large center fire cartridge creating major damage. The reason I use a light bullet with decent velocity and primarily take shoulder shots is to simulate center fire performance within the capability of a muzzle loader. At longer ranges I can exert as much energy as possible with a shoulder shot - at closer range the animal will normally drop immediately but not always.

To me accuracy is everything because a good solid hit will result in a kill but sorting through bullet performance, velocity, range, terminal ballistics is still like playing the lottery. Plus I am still wondering, what's best, a pass through or the bullet remaining in the deer and expending all its energy: especially this year after I received complaints about the massive amount of shoulder damage on deer I gave away.

Thanks for sharing feedback

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

Part of the problem we are experiencing is the shortage of even main stream muzzle loading components. I shoot Shock waves and buy up enough for the entire season 3 months early or I will not be able to find my bullet just before or during the season. A normally difficult to find bullet, even though it is a great performer, may be impossible to find - especially in a remote location. Nothing brings out the joy of hunting like discovering your pet components are not available a couple days before the season - talk about stress

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

Anyone use the Scorpion PT gold?

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

You said you shoot the 200gr Shockwave. That should be a 40cal bullet in a 50cal sabot. The SuperGlide should be a 45cal bullet in a 50cal sabot with 2 petals. Its also much smaller loaded ID. Roughly .506 for the 50x40 and around .500 for the SuperGlide. You can buy the 50x40 from MMP or Precsiion Rfle but only T/C sells the SuperGlide. Its under contract as a T/C exclusive. MMP offers a 50x45 3 Petal EZ that is very close to the same size. Its the same sabot as the Hornady SST EZLoad.

Harvesters 50x40 is ONLY available as a Crushrib and loads much easier than the MMP 50x40. I never had any luck with that Harvester sabot. I had several sabot failures.

Click to expand...

Just for info: 40 cal 200g shockwaves in my TC Pro Hunter with 110 g Black Horn are averaging 2140. fps. Friend told me (using same load) that he shot a doe at three hundred yards through the shoulders and dropped her on the spot. Performance does not get much better than that! I have not had a chance to see what velocity this bullet retains at 300 yards or even 250, my limit.

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

ronlaughlin said:

SteveH said:

For the money, I don't think you can beat the Speer DeepCurls with respect to terminal performance............

Click to expand...

The 300g Speer Deep Curl has worked very very well for me on several deer. Seems like they expand real fast, and then stay together, and penetrate deep. More than one deer i have seen killed, had over 1" entrance holes in the ribs, excessive damage to the innards, and over 2" exit holes out. Bullets captured with water filled milk jugs show excellent weight retention, and the lead is indeed truly bonded to the jacket. The bullet also seems to work at both fast, and slow speeds.

Yes, i certainly agree with SteveH! Other qualities of this bullet are, it is accurate, and it flies good. Also, the published ballistic coefficient is quite correct in my shooting experience.

Following is a small collection of them bullet captured at the noted range.

Click to expand...

very impressive info and picture of spent round.
we sir have made me spend some coin. LOL
i will now have to try this 300g Speer Deep Curl this spring

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

Now someone please tell me where these 300gr Deep Curls are in stock... ______________. Beuller? Beutler? Any one?

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

They are available at Wideners.

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

catfishtony said:

ronlaughlin said:

SteveH said:

For the money, I don't think you can beat the Speer DeepCurls with respect to terminal performance............

Click to expand...

The 300g Speer Deep Curl has worked very very well for me on several deer. Seems like they expand real fast, and then stay together, and penetrate deep. More than one deer i have seen killed, had over 1" entrance holes in the ribs, excessive damage to the innards, and over 2" exit holes out. Bullets captured with water filled milk jugs show excellent weight retention, and the lead is indeed truly bonded to the jacket. The bullet also seems to work at both fast, and slow speeds.

Yes, i certainly agree with SteveH! Other qualities of this bullet are, it is accurate, and it flies good. Also, the published ballistic coefficient is quite correct in my shooting experience.

Following is a small collection of them bullet captured at the noted range.

Click to expand...

very impressive info and picture of spent round.
we sir have made me spend some coin. LOL
i will now have to try this 300g Speer Deep Curl this spring

Click to expand...

I agree with Ron and SteveH. The Pics of bullets like Ron shows here is why I switched to this bullet. What really amazes me is the consistancy it has in expansion over a wide range of yardages. I shoot them over 100 grains of BH209 or 100grains of Pyrodex RS and the entrance holes always are a bit over bullet size if no bone is hit to about 1" if a rib is hit and exit holes are around 2" or more if bone is hit on the way out. The holes look the same on deer I have taken at 50 yards out to my farthest at 206 yards and anywhere in between. The organs inbetween those holes is blown up. It really is a great all around bullet.

Like Ron said Wideners has them and Nathchez did. I think guys have overlooked them at Widners because they are one page #2 of the .451-.452's and it is the only bullet on that 2nd page.

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

ohiobuck said:

Anyone use the Scorpion PT gold?

Click to expand...

Yes any feedback on the Scorpion PT Gold?

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

I vote Barnes290 tez

Re: !!!!!!!!WAT IS THE BEST 50 CAL.MUZZLE LOADER BULLELT? ??

I have used three that have worked well for me, the 300 grain Hornady SSTs, the Barnes Originals in 300 grain and as bestill I am really liking the 290 TEZs. There is usually an entrance and a larger exit hole.

Re:

deerfrenzy said:

Wat does Lehigh ,DOA, stand for? ????????????
and wat powder do u use? ?
I was doing great with 777
I want to say thanks for all the info i really do appreciate it alot.......i know this spring and fall ill be doing way more shooting of this gun

Click to expand...

You know I am not sure anymore + they have changed the name to CF (Controlled Fracturing)

I have shot a lot of BH-209 and it is a very good powder - but I use T7 all the time. I can get it for $20 a pound and BH is close to $40 for 10 ounces around here.