New ML, new ML shooter

Hello,

I have been wanting to get into muzzleloading for a few years. I typically hunt deer in mid-Missouri with a CF rifle, but with some of the bad weather over the last few years, I wanted to have the opportunity to hunt some different dates. Well, this year I applied for a ML "managed hunt" on some conservation land, and was drawn, so it was time to take the plunge.

I bought some stuff somewhat hastily at Cabelas today, since my 10% off coupon expired today, and already know I made some mistakes. Any advice is appreciated. Here's the rundown:

-T/C Impact, blued/black

-Williams rear aperture-I have read a bit about people running out of adjustment on these, but it seemed to align with the factory rear sight just fine, and still has a bit of adjustment left.

-Blackhorn 209

-Remington Kleanbore ML primers-I know. I need shotshell primers. Mistake #1. I'll go back for some 209As.

-Hornady 300gr SST "Low Drag" bullets with sabots-bought a couple 20 packs. Might be mistake #2, as I am anticipating hunting in areas where shot opportunities will likely be close up. I have read about the XTP vs. SST a bit. Overhyped discussion topic? I'm thinking the deer will be dead either way.

-Then I got some cleaning do-dads, and some speed loaders, which are probably the wrong ones. Oh well, they can go back. I think I have some slings and swivels I am trying to dig up from around the basement.

On the powder, I did a test measure and measured two 3.7cc portions using Lee dippers, and it weighed out at 74 gr on my cheapo Ebay scale. Sound like a good place to start?

Planning on heading to the range on Friday. Pretty sure I'm not doing anything stupid or unsafe, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to check in with those more experienced.

Thanks,

Josh

Welcome, with BH-209 all you need to clean it is Hoppes #9, Bh-209 seams to group better without swabbing. with your powder it sound like it's between 105-110 grs.

Did you get a powder measure? If so, measure your powder BY VOLUME. 90 grains seems to be a good load but you can work it from there. And yes, the Kleenbore primers are for Triple Seven powder not Blackhorn 209. Get some cleaning jags but like Squezer said, BH seems to like fouled rifles when you shoot. You will be able to tell when its time to swab as it will be near impossible to push the bullet down the barrel. But I have shot 20 rounds without swabbing using BH209. And then gun solvent to clean it with.

When you weigh charges, you have to be real careful. I have no idea how much what you weighed would come out to on a volume measure. But I am am sure these guys that weigh can tell you for sure.

I did not get a measure. I used a couple resources on the powder measuring thing. On the Blakchorn FAQ page, they say it is ok to weigh charges, unlike other powders. Their chart also says that 120 volume grains are equivalent to 84 grains by weight. Then, on this page:

http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet2005.htm

they convert volumetric grains to CCs. My intent was/is to use the lee dippers and my scale to come up with a load, and then make a rifle specific measure using an old case or something.

Using those resources, I realized that 6.62cc=100 volume grains=70 weight grains. Therefore, the 7.4cc should be around 112 volume grains or 78 or so weight grains. I came up a little light on the scale, probably because it was hard to get the dippers exactly full, so I am probably at around 105-110 volume grains.

Sorry for being so detailed. I work with engineers...it has become my nature.

Swanny said:

Hello,... I have read about the XTP vs. SST a bit. Overhyped discussion topic?.............

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Not really, but kinda. XTP will maybe do more tissue damage. Changing to a standard shotgun primer corrects the only real issue i noticed, it seems all else should work good, including your powder charge.

Hi Swanny,

I am exactly in your shoes, having just bought a ML and going through the process of putting together the load. I bought a Traditions Buckstalker (.50 cal) and wound up using 100 grains (by volume - 75 grains by weight) of Triple 7 with a 350 grn Hornady FBP.

I just finished firing it today at the range and one of the best tips I received on this board is to have pre-moistened patches (use 50% iso alcohol and 50% Windex) with you when you shoot. You will probably need to clean the barrel after every shot. Otherwise, it will get harder for you to load in the bullets.

You might want to try loading a bullet into your ML (no powder) before you go to the range, especially if you aren't using sabots. Some bullets won't work with some barrels.

Make sure you take a cleaning rod with you and some dry patches as well as the pre-moistened ones. I also took out my breech plug after every shot and cleaned and re-lubed it as well. (See my thread on Big Game - 50 cal load for Bear).

Good luck and have fun.

BuffKiller

Also I used Remington-Peters ML primers and they worked well. As long as your primers are marked as 209s you should be okay.

BuffKiller

BuffKiller said:

Also I used Remington-Peters ML primers and they worked well. As long as your primers are marked as 209s you should be okay.

BuffKiller

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That is not exactly correct. The "ML" type 209s such as, the Rem Kleenbore ML he bought, or 777Ml primers, are a Reduced Heat/pressure 209 made specifically for powders such as Real Black powder, Pyrodex, 777, or AP. Blackhorn 209 is a different powder altogether. It requires much more heat and pressure for consistent ignition. Since he is going to shoot Blackhorn 209 powder he should to avoid the ML specific 209 type primer. While they may work ok (big if) now since it is warm outside they will most likely fail when it is cold. A Standard or Mag type Shotgun 209 primer is what he needs. Since you are shooting 777 the ML primers should work just fine for you.

Swanny, Welcome to the Forum!

When you get the 209's Shotgun primers one thing to look for is that they are slightly different in length between brands. If you have trouble closing the action on the Impact with what ever you get you just may need to try a different brand to one that is shorter. Conversely if you see lots of blow back (Black soot on the primer and in the action) you may need a longer primer. Lots of guys use the standard Blue box Winchester 209s and some like the mag type CCI209M or Fed209A. Maybe one of the guys that has an Impact will see your post and chime in one what they use. I use the Remington STS in my knight KRB7.

Use CCI 209M in our Impact, no blowback but that is with only 60gr of BH209 for a youth hunting load. A stouter load may produce some but will be a few years before I find out

Listen to the more experienced. I just know that the RP Primers I used worked okay, but I was using T7 powder.

BuffKiller

Shot 7 rounds today. Ended up going with 63gr by weight, which should be 90gr by volume of powder. Bought some Remington STS primers this morning, and used those. I'm on paper at 100 yards, but will need a couple sessions to do some more experimentation and really dial it in. I definitely need to pick up several pre-measured powder tubes. Love it so far!

Sounds good. Did the Rem STS primers seal well in the breech plug? Just curious since I don't have a TC, but I use them in a modified plug for my Knight KRB7.

Check out Lanes Tubes in the Classifieds. It is the second sticky at the top. Those vials are great for holding Premeasured powder to carry to the range. I use them when hunting too. Depending on the load you can use them like a speed loader. Lane is a great guy to deal with to boot.

Since this is my first experience, I have nothing to compare it to. The flange did not seat all the way in the plug, but the action closed fine. I could get the primers out with my fingers after firing, but not really easily. Seemed to me the diameter was just right. First round was a hang fire; after that, every load went off right away like a CF.

ETA: Just sent an email about the tubes. The small ones could be perfect if I stick with the load mentioned above, since the volume is just over 6ml.

I use the Rem STS primers in my Impact as well. They do not seat all the way down but I have no issues closing the breach or with blowback. I think you're just fine.

May I ask why you went with the rear peep sight? I really like the factory fiber optic sights on mine.

Emrah

P.S. I've had good luck and consistency by running a single rubbing alcohol soaked patch once down the barrel every couple (few?) shots. Doesn't completely clean the bore by any means, but enough to load easily and keep shooting. Of course, I use T7.

Oh, couple more things:

1, I have great luck with the 250 gr. SST bullet, but I'm over two 50 grain pellets of T7. I'm convinced the SSTs currently made are tough enough at short range to not blow up, but still expand and punch a big hole at distance. Shot a deer through the liver at 117 yards and it blew a beautiful star-shaped hole through it. Bullet went all the way through, so more than enough penetration.

2. Be sure to mark your ramrod to use as a depth gauge. I use tape instead of scribing it in case I decide to change up my bullet or powder and the overall load level changes.

Emrah

emrah said:

May I ask why you went with the rear peep sight? I really like the factory fiber optic sights on mine.

Emrah

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I'm a big fan of the longer sight radius and the aperure sight picture. I regularly shoot ARs and 22 LRs with Tech Sights at distance, so I'm familiar with the setup and sight picture. Of course, those all just have black front sight posts. I'm really liking the fiber optic front sight inside the aperture.

Swanny said:

Since this is my first experience, I have nothing to compare it to. The flange did not seat all the way in the plug, but the action closed fine. I could get the primers out with my fingers after firing, but not really easily. Seemed to me the diameter was just right. First round was a hang fire; after that, every load went off right away like a CF.

ETA: Just sent an email about the tubes. The small ones could be perfect if I stick with the load mentioned above, since the volume is just over 6ml.

Click to expand...

The Flange should not go all the way down to the top of the pocket for the primer, it should stay up a little. What usually seals the primer in the breech plug is the primer bottoming out in the pocket. Some primers may seal on the side as well. Blowback is a bit of soot that would get on the primer sides or out into the action in some cases.

When you prepared your rifle to shoot the first shot did you swab the bore with a patch then pop a couple primers prior to loading? If there is any oil/solvent remaining in breech plug it can cause a fail to fire on the first shot, or at the least a hang fire. Next time you go to the range try this. Swab the bore with a dry patch or one with alcohol. Now take a DRY Patch and run it down with the ramrod till it contacts the breech plug and leave it there. Now prime the rifle with a primer and fire it, pointed in a safe direction of course. Don't worry about the ramrod it is only going to move up the bore a few inches. Next push the patch straight back to the breech plug then remove it and look at the patch, it should be burned through where the face of the jag was. I do this 3 times, without swabbing with a solvent or alcohol just dry patches, and then load the rifle. This does 2 things, first you are assured that the flame is getting through the breech plug flash hole to the charge (and that the plug is dried out) and second you are spreading the primer fouling out in the bore to pre-foul the bore.

All I did prior to shooting was clean out the bore with dry patches and clean out the plug. Will pre-foul next time!

One thing you should add to your cleaning box (If you have not done so already) is a drill bit that will fit the flash channel of the TC breech plug. The flash channel is the hole under the primer but not the smallest hole (Flashhole). Use the bit and turn it by hand (No Power Drill) to scrap the carbon fouling that will build up in there, it can be quite hard and must be scraped out. This will happen when shooting Blackhorn. IF you keep it clean now then you will not have a problem later on. We have heard of some have a build up that all but closed off the Flash channel and prevented the rifles from firing, plus it appeared to be hard like the plug itself so they had a hard time believing it when we described it to them. Some rifles take a 1/8" bit and some are 3mm, I don't recall what the TC hole size is.

All set to hunt! I've got it dialed in to where I am able to shoot a 2" group at 100 yards with the irons, using 67gr (by weight) of the Blackhorn, crush rib sabots, and 250gr. XTPs. Don't know my exact zero distance, I just know I am about 1" high at 50 and 2" low at 100. Thanks for all your help!