Sighting In My Triumph

I have a TC Triumph that I have never been able to sight in. I started out with 777 using TC Sabots and it seemed to shot ok, but the sabots were a royal pain to load. I went to the range yesterday and was all over the board. I cleaned the gun, changed the breech plug, and didn't make any difference. I am using White Hots powder, Kleanbore 209 primers, and Powerbelts 295 grain. I cannot get a pattern. I know it's not me because I sighted in my 223 in less than 20 shots. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Use blackthorn powder 209 cci or federal primers 250 or 300 sst .

Grillgod said:

I have a TC Triumph that I have never been able to sight in. I started out with 777 using TC Sabots and it seemed to shot ok, but the sabots were a royal pain to load. I went to the range yesterday and was all over the board. I cleaned the gun, changed the breech plug, and didn't make any difference. I am using White Hots powder, Kleanbore 209 primers, and Powerbelts 295 grain. I cannot get a pattern. I know it's not me because I sighted in my 223 in less than 20 shots. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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Change powder - try Hodgdon Triple 7 FFg, Blackhorn 209. You might also consider Pyrodex RS

Change primers - With T7, I use Fiocchi - they are one of the least hot primers on the market. I also have the small rifle primer adapters from Precision Rifle (I use these with T7...not hot enough for BH 209. With BH 209, I use Federal 209's, CCI 209 magnums and Remington STS 209's. Precision Rifle now offers adapters for use with large rifle primers. I can tell you by using these asapters with T7, my groups shrunk significantly. :yeah: Here's their site: http://www.prbullet.com/

Bullets - Oh this is a long list...I use Precision Rifle Dead Centers, Hornady SST's and Barnes TMZ. All perform well in my Omega.

Play with different combinations of powder, primer and bullets. You'll find one or more that your rifle "likes to eat."

You have a wonderful rifle...IMHO T/C builds a very high quality gun. Too bad that S&W bought them out.

Best of luck to you.

Are you in an area where you can use saboted bullets, for hunting? You need a better bore fit 1st. You could get that with 'low-drag' or 'easy-glide' saboted bullets. You could also use 'crush-rib' sabots and a bullet that fits right. You can check bore fit around home, empty gun. I'd get that settled 1st.

I'm not big on 'White Hots', but never tried them. I'd study up on B209 powder, it would take stronger primers too.

Don't even think about shooting at 100 yards until you have TOTAL control over your groupings at 40-50 yards.

I was with a guy a few years ago. While sighting in he pushed his ramrod against a barn to get the bullet down. I said, 'that's not right'. He had a T/C M-L. I gave him some crush rib sabots. That was much better, with bullet experimentation he could fine tune the fit.

Scoped?

What loading jag? Pointed bullets need the right one so tips don't get smashed.

Pellet powder?

Swabbing bore after every shot?

I shoot the same powder and primers as you. I was able to group in 3 shots with powerbelts. Everyone here say to convert over to Blackhorn but I don't see the point as white hots preform wonderful for me.

Your bullets should go down snug but not hard "sabot". Powerbelts go down even more easy. You need to match your bullet to your barrel. When sighting in bruch and swab between every shot to have a consistaint.

Grillgod said:

I have a TC Triumph that I have never been able to sight in. I started out with 777 using TC Sabots and it seemed to shot ok, but the sabots were a royal pain to load. I went to the range yesterday and was all over the board. I cleaned the gun, changed the breech plug, and didn't make any difference. I am using White Hots powder, Kleanbore 209 primers, and Powerbelts 295 grain. I cannot get a pattern. I know it's not me because I sighted in my 223 in less than 20 shots. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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I'll try to do my best to help you with the info you have provided. First with ANY powder other than BH209 you MUST swab between every shot to get any consistency. Yes.....that means that you do not have to swab with BH209. The first shot loads the same as the 60th shot & there is NEVER a crud ring.

Second...... with pellets you cannot adjust your powder charge to find out what load works best with your gun & your bullet.

Third.....Powerbelt bullets are notorious for poor accuracy. Shoot a better bullet & then test that bullet with multiple sabots to see which combination shoots best.

Fourth..... you make no mention of the temperature when you were shooting or if you were letting the gun cool off between shots. Both can be major factors- Greg

The bottom line is the bullets, powerbelts in this case are hard to load. Powerbelts are more easy to load than sabots all things equil.

The Op makes mention in his opening post that the sabots were hard to load but makes no mention of what sabot or bullet he was trying to load. He makes it sound as if he went to the powerbelt's because they load easier. I only shot one pack of powerbelt's ever and they loaded easy never had one load hard in any gun.

Back to the original post I would get yourself some Harvester Crush Rib black sabots and some Hornady XTP pistol bullets start with the 250 gr. .452 dia. I would also get some loose T7 2F and a powder measurer this way you can start at 80 gr. by volume and work your way up till you find an accurate load. You will need to swab between shots with any powder except BH209. Those components are cheap to purchase but are proven performers. FYI the white hot pellets and the same as T7 pellets just sold under the IMR name instead of the Hodgdon name.

Thanks for all of the information. It put me in Overload ! I decided to start out with BH 209, Federal 209A Primers, and Horady SST's. I like the fact that the BH 209 doesn't need cleaning between shots. BH 209 is hard to find around here and some of the on line retailers are out and won't be getting it in for another 3-4 weeks. I finally found it and paid dearly for it, but the guy at the gun shop said it was as good as everyone says. Ordered the cleaning stuff from Montana and I should have everything I need by the end of the week. If it all works out I'll go to the range on Friday. Will let you know how it goes.

Thanks again !

Good deal your going to be happy camper !

Grillgod said:

Thanks for all of the information. It put me in Overload ! I decided to start out with BH 209, Federal 209A Primers, and Horady SST's. I like the fact that the BH 209 doesn't need cleaning between shots. BH 209 is hard to find around here and some of the on line retailers are out and won't be getting it in for another 3-4 weeks. I finally found it and paid dearly for it, but the guy at the gun shop said it was as good as everyone says. Ordered the cleaning stuff from Montana and I should have everything I need by the end of the week. If it all works out I'll go to the range on Friday. Will let you know how it goes.

Thanks again !

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I would suggest that you contact Carlos at Ed's Gun Shop 910-692-7936 He will have a great price on Bh209 as well as any other accessories you may need. I would suggest trying Harvester sabots, both crush rib & EZ load & if you want to use a premium bullet then a Lehigh, if you want a cost saving proven bullet, then the PT Gold 260

GregK said:

I would suggest that you contact Carlos at Ed's Gun Shop 910-692-7936 He will have a great price on Bh209 as well as any other accessories you may need. I would suggest trying Harvester sabots, both crush rib & EZ load & if you want to use a premium bullet then a Lehigh, if you want a cost saving proven bullet, then the PT Gold 260

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As an fyi, as of yesterday (Sept 29) Carlos has BH209 in stock. 29.99 a bottle, two bottle minimum.

As was said, get some hotter primers for the BH209 - I've had good success with CCI 209Ms, Federals, Remington STS.

If you want a decent load quickly, Hornady XTPs with supplied sabot are pretty easy to find wherever ML supplies are sold. They are cheap, accurate and will put down the deer.

Funny thing about Blackhorn 209............. Western has no shortages of it.... PERIOD What's happening is that the retailers aren't ordering it, nor are the distributors for the retailers. Now days its called, "Just in Time" and it sucks for shooters. Call Western and they'll tell you there's no shortage and they have more than they can distribute.

If it were my rifle, I'd certainly shoot BH209 in it, with the Federal 209A or CCI209M primers (my choice). I'd be stuffing a Barnes T-EZ bullet with the supplied sabot down on it and forget about all the rest. The next part will be up to you. Just my 2¢........

ENCORE50A said:

If it were my rifle, I'd certainly shoot BH209 in it, with the Federal 209A or CCI209M primers (my choice). I'd be stuffing a Barnes T-EZ bullet with the supplied sabot down on it and forget about all the rest. The next part will be up to you. Just my 2¢........

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I second that....except I prefer Harvester smooth black sabots

Carlos has the TEZ bullet in 50ct bulk packages for a reasonable price. My bulk bullets with a 50ct package of the Harvester sabots and shipping came to $1.18 a piece.

For most of the members on this forum the exotic route would seem like the only way to go. By this I meen that most can not find BH209 and harvesters in there local big box store. Add the fact that BH209 isn't all that easy to get into and some think because it's powder and not pellets its old school. We no diffrent and someday I'll convert but from a hunting standpoint I'm doing well with what I can find locally.

As an update on Carlos/Ed's Gun Shop for BH209. I got two bottles of BH209 to my door for $73.00. That's $29 per bottle and $15 for the shipping. I live in Clifton, VA. Works out to $36.50 a bottle (2 bottle minimum) to my door.

Shipping seems a little high (back in the day it was $27 per bottle to your door!) but still a decent deal.

I shot a triumph for years, It was among the LEAST finicky guns ive had. I could shoot probably 4-5 inch groups or less with pretty much anything I stuffed in it. Powerbelts were among the most accurate, and I shot a few deer with them, but stopped using them because of all the bad reports i would see. Ive used at least 4-5 different brands of black, seven, pyrodex, BH209. all loose and everything performed well. I shot pretty much whatever I could get a hold of for .45 (mostly .451/.452) and anything was acceptable to 100 yards with some minor tinkering. some combos shot better than others, but I have never found anything that truly would not group in mine. the one consistent I always use is w209 primers. my typical load was 80-100 grns of whatever powder of the day, and usually something in a 300 grn bullet, and usually an hph-24, or a crush rib sabot. I do remember hornady XTP, OR SST in 300 grn with their supplied sabot shot fine and accounted for several deer each.

Hornet22savage said:

FYI the white hot pellets and the same as T7 pellets just sold under the IMR name instead of the Hodgdon name.

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This is completely false information. You're just guessing, and spreading false rumors.


T7

Charcoal.....................10%
Sodium Benzoate.........10%
Potassium Nitrate.........30%
Potassium Perchlorate...30%
Dicyaniamide...............10%
Dextrin........................10%


White hots

Sodium Benzoate............20%
Potassium Nitrate............50%
Potassium Perchlorate......25%
Dextrin.............................5%

Sodium Benzoate is a fuel and the extra 10% takes the place of the 10% charcoal that is not present in Whitehots. Dextrin is also a fuel but based on sugar or sucrose.

Both of the potassium compounds are your oxidizers and both are quite corrosive. 75% oxidizer seem really high given the amount of fuel percentage.