Issues with keeping a group from one time to the next

My buddy and I are preparing for an elk hunt and he is having issues. He recently bought a new t/c triumph and put a BDC scope on it. The problem is while using BH powder, usually 110 grains, and a variety bullets and sabots he has not been able to keep groups from one day to the next. We would go to the range, he would find a load that was shooting well and then go home, clean his gun and the same load would be all over. We even run a dry patch down after every shot even though it's Blackhorn. He has tried Barnes Tez, tmz, with original and harvester sabots. Different Hornady bullets and sabots ect. Some would shoot well and then they wouldn't. Baffled.

Anyone's 2 cents worth is greatly appreciated. The scope has been checked and tightened also.

Here's a couple simplistic possibilities...

Are you sure the scope isn't the culprit? Loose and moving or some other problem with it? Maybe take it off and see if you can get a decent group with just the fiber optics (if it has any). Maybe YOU should shoot the gun and see if you get the same results that he get's if you haven't already?

He is going to try that with the scope, it's a good idea for process of elimination if nothing else. I did not shoot it also and the though had crossed my mind but he is a very good shooter and the pattern opens way up. Thank you.

He might also want to check the scope for a parallax Problem. If you have not seen it before it can drive you nuts. I had a brand new scope once that had about 6 inches of parallax in it right out of the box. That one went back right away. Sometimes it can be subtle enough that it is hard to notice unless you are looking for it. If you have never seen it before, the easiest way to check for it is to take the unloaded rifle and sit it in the bags and center it on your target. Then look through the scope just like you were going to shoot. Without moving the rifle just move your head a little up/down Left//right. If the reticule moves with your head you have a parallax problem.

My son's Triumph is our most 'finicky' muzzleloader. Same thing as your friends. He has shot many deer with this rifle but most all shots have been 100yds or less so a few inches here and there is not a big deal.

Does he index the sabots to the bore?

How bout knurling the bullets?

Has he tried JB bore paste?

Right now I am in the process of floating the barrel by sanding down the forearm to see if that helps my sons.

I may try having a vent liner installed in the breech plug just to make sure ignition is consistent, that breech plug is long and a deeper powder pocket may help. How many shots thru your friends breech plug, is it wore out? Does he clean out the flash channel with a drill bit to get all the carbon out?

I may remove the QLA and have the barrel recrowned if all else fails.

It's a nice rifle but gets frustrating when going to the range and wondering 'what's it going to do today'.

This is a tough one without seeing the gun but, I second the idea of focusing on the scope first. Someone else should shoot the gun too so we know it's the gun and not the shooter. Even competent shooters can have trouble with a certain rifle. Parallax sound like a real possibility, which manifests when the shooter changes their hold on the gun (how they grip the stock, how tight them hold their cheek, how hi, low, or distance from the scope their eye is held.You can check parallax by simply holding the gun down on some sandbags and moving your head back and forth, and up and down while looking through the scope. If the reticle appears to move, then it's an issue you'll need to deal with. Most scopes are factory set to have as little parallax as possibly at 100 yards. Once you see parallax, you'll know why it's so important to have the same cheek hold and eye distance from shot to shot (which can be hard with a muzzle loader since we shoot, then stand up, reload, and hen sit back down). Lastly, don't underestimate mirage. This time of year with the cool mornings, and warmer days mirage can be something to contend with. Even at fifty yards it can an inch or two to your impact making a 1" group into 3 or 4 inches. Depending on the scope, you may not even readily see it occurring.

I was sighting in with a guy a few years ago, early on at the 100 yard range. His groups were rather erratic, no consistent pattern to work with.

I suggested he go back to 50 yards and get a good handle on the impact point before shooting at 100. It's hard to adjust when one shot is high right and the other two are left of the bull.

It's easier to see a trend and correct for it at closer range, under 50 if need be. Once that's taken care of maybe even check again at 75 yards.

It could be other issues, scope, mounts or quality of either. Did you try a few shots? How is the trigger? Some shooters will shoot better than the next, even with the same equipment.

Its hard to say what is happening. It could of course be shooter error, but I doubt that. I would start out with checking the scope. In fact if you have a second scope, throw that on and a see if the rifle continues to act up. I had a Bushnell that I purchased, put on a Knight LK and it seemed to change every time I shot it. At first I blamed the quick release rings and the fact I like to pull the scope when I clean. But eventually I threw a cheep Simmons Pro Diamond 4x on the rifle, same mounts, and it behaved perfect. I sent the scope back.

Next thing I would check is the powder. Some rifles like some powder and some rifles hate other powders. Personally I would get a jug of Triple Seven 2f and yes, swab between shots, but see how that behaves in the rifle. I understand the reason people want to shoot Black Horn 209, but like I said, it might be the powder.

Next, let someone else shoot the rifle at the range and see how it behaves for them. All else fails, call T/C but I don't know if that will do you any good.

Might have something to do with shooting a dirty(fouled)barrel.He gets the best grouping with a fouled barrel.Next day starts off with a clean barrel and has a few fliers.May take numerous shots to get the right amount of fouling in the barrel before his grouping improves.Many hunters fire off several primers to foul their barrels before actually loading up for hunting that day.This eliminates that first shot being a flier when they get ready to shoot their game.Just a guess on my part.

Yes, many do a 'fouling shot' of sorts or even with a few primers. Whether one does one depends on how different the clean vrs dirty bore shoots, type of powder, potential length of time with the dirty bore, ect..

The way I hunt(distance) and the amount of difference observed doesn't make me feel a need for the fouled bore. There are past threads about the fouled bore issue, should you desire more reading.

Thanks for all the great info everyone. He took his gun a gun store and changed the rings. He had aluminum rings and apparently the review on them are not the greatest so he started there. He then went to the range and shot 3 different bullets in 4 shot groups with better success than ever with this new gun which makes him assume it was the scope mounts. Next time he shoots he should know for sure.

If it's all one piece receiver and rings, that's the only bonded aluminum setup I would trust, using magnum powder charges on MLs.

Steel is gooder thou.

TripleSe7en said:

If it's all one piece receiver and rings, that's the only bonded aluminum setup I would trust, using magnum powder charges on MLs.

Steel is gooder thou.

Click to expand...

I don't agree with that. I've got 2 pc aluminum's on several of my guns, never had an issue. Some have MANY shots with decent charges, scopes have always tracked true. Yes, steel are great....but aluminum can be fine as well.

I just set up two TC Triumphs (OK, a Triumph and a Bone Collector, same thing different color) for elk.

I tried several different bullets, sabots and powder charges in each, and saved the targets from my range sessions so that they would direct me where to go on my next trip to the range.
Both rifles ended up with the Barnes T-EX 290 and 120gr eq (84.0gr weighed) of BH 209 as the most accurate load.
Despite the 110 charge being oft referred to as the "most accurate" load of BH 209 I found that in the aforementioned rifles the 120 groups were much better than the 110 groups, and in my TC Impact the 105gr groups were much better than 110 or 120. None of the 3 shot 110 as well as a different load.

My routine was to shoot every bullet in its factory supplied sabot at 110gr as a baseline. Bullets that showed potential were tried at different loads and with different sabots to find the most accurate combination assuming the bullet/sabot fit easily enough to test and to allow for eventual field reloading (some are way too tight). Bullets that did not show potential were not shot again, as the odds of shrinking a 6 inch group down to 1 inch is quite small. Once I arrived at the load/bullet/sabot combo I tried CCI vs Federal primers to see if that made a difference.

The moral of the story is that it may be the charge that is not the best for the rifle, and you may have to broaden your testing.

WV Hunter said:

TripleSe7en said:

If it's all one piece receiver and rings, that's the only bonded aluminum setup I would trust, using magnum powder charges on MLs.

Steel is gooder thou.

Click to expand...

I don't agree with that. I've got 2 pc aluminum's on several of my guns, never had an issue. Some have MANY shots with decent charges, scopes have always tracked true. Yes, steel are great....but aluminum can be fine as well.

Click to expand...

The Talley light weight rings on my ULA are aluminum and that rifle will rock your world with hotter loads. They are two piece but the bases and rings are integrated. Personally i do prefer Warnes steel bases and rings if im using two piece. Mainly because they return to zero better than other designs when removed for cleaning.

I use both, when installed correctly they will both work, BLUE LOC-TITE on ALL screws. I'm using DNZ Grim Reaper Mounts on my Ml's & CT fired rifles now.

I thought Grim Reaper was a broadhead. At least that is what I shoot out of my Crossbow! :?:

Grim Reaper is a broadhead. I think what sqezer means is Game Reaper.