First trip with new Mountaineer. So so results

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Kraig

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Finally, FINALLY got to shoot my new Mountaineer today after having it for a year. I had so-so results. Could definitely use any advice thrown at me.

I started off at 50 yards. Had several vials loaded with 90-100-110 grain BH209, but only had one kind of bullet/sabot, which are Barnes T-EZ 250 grain. For some reason, I didn’t load 80 grain vials. Not sure why.

What I did was set the target at 50 yards and did a 3-Shot group with each of the 3 charged. Of those 3, the 100 and 110 had the best groups. The 110 grain I only did a 2-Shot group (hard to explain why). Below are the groups. 90gr is bottom left. 100 is bottom center and 110 is top.

6d63f1128dc3587caed75984c0726836.jpg


My initial thought is if a certain group shot the best at 50 it should more than likely shoot the best at 100? So I loaded up some 110 grain charges and shot. Got a small group, adjusted the scope (sighting in now at this point). Waited for barrel to cool. Shot again, not only was I too far to one way, but my groups opened way up. Obviously, they won’t be as tight as they were at 50, but still was expecting a “good” group.

I wondered, maybe I should drop to 100 grains since that grouped good at 50 also. Well, I got it close. Close enough where I was comfortable for hunting.

So I decided to check POI after cleaning. I ran one swab of Hoppes 3 times back and forth. Followed by dry patch. Followed by oil patch. Followed by dry patch. All this to replicate a clean gun. Also cleaned and checked Breech plug channel and hoe. I fired a primer before loading another 100 grains and the Barnes. To boost the frustration level up it was 5” high.

Now before anyone thinks it could be me, I’m not a marine sniper but I am a very good shot that can stay very still on target. So “me” usually is out of the equation.

I’m a little confused and frustrated, especially reading so many people on this site and others shooting 1” 3-Shot groups all day long.

What I did was ran one dry swab, fired primer, adjusted scope and hit right on the bottom right diamond, outside thick line (1.5” from bullseye?). Then I ran out of time like always.

I COMPLETELY understand that it may take more than JUST trying one size of one bullet/sabot to find that perfect combo, and I understand that muzzleloading is sometimes a project and one may not find success the first time out, but I at least thought since this is a reputable load configuration I would have done a little better. Also didn’t help there was a decent crosswind.

Does anyone have any suggestions for me? Not sure when I can make it out to range next.

Also wondering, since my last shot was as close as I got to the center after running one dry swab followed by primer, is it safe to just “clean” it with a dry patch? I proved that using solvent and oil my POI went way off.

(Learned real quick that one container of BH209 gets used up real fast )

Thanks everyone for any help u may have. I appreciate it


EDITED TO ADD: I was having almost a 100% failure to remove the spent primers too. Had to remove bolt every time and use a screwdriver. Using CCI209M. Upon further investigating, the primers seem to be fouled up pretty good, probably 75% of the time. Is this a sign of too much blowback? And could this contribute to loss of accuracy/consistency? If so, would switching to the Federal 209A or Win209 primers be better?

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I'm definitely not a sniper and have no experience with a Mountaineer but I'll try. Not being an Azz but none of those groups would work for me at 50, I want one ragged hole. What do in load development is I shoot off of a redneck lead sled. This pretty much takes ME out of the situation and shows me what the rifle will do. Once I have that figured out it"s time to work on me. Hopefully someone with experience with that rifle will chime in. Good Luck
 
Those groups usually wouldn’t be good enough for me, but one of my biggest goals today was to just get it shooting decently. Just yesterday I did 0.5” groups with my rifle, so there’s no “me” factor that needs to be eliminated. I just figured those groups were “good enough” to at least get me consistent until things can be tweaked to get them better. I walked away feeling a lot further off than I originally planned or imagined.


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What kind of ramrod pressure did it take to load the TEZs? The bullet may need to be knurled some.

If you can find some Harvester smooth black sabots, that may help.

Try some 300gr XTPs with a MMP or Harvester sabot, it's not my favorite hunting bullet but they usually shoot good from many rifles and can give you a baseline to work with.
 
Spent primers not falling out- recock the bolt and pull the trigger, that will reset the cup in the primer and should fall out. Win 209 s are longer and should cut down on blowback. It may still need a shim or two in the breech plug.

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BuckDoeHunter said:
What kind of ramrod pressure did it take to load the TEZs? The bullet may need to be knurled some.


It was just the right amount. Not too hard not too easy.


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regularly having that much trouble removing the spent primer is probably it. Big difference all the way around without all the blowback. Shim the BP for a .002-.004 crush and try again.
 
Squeeze said:
regularly having that much trouble removing the spent primer is probably it. Big difference all the way around without all the blowback. Shim the BP for a .002-.004 crush and try again.

Just out of curiosity from someone who honestly does not know - how does that problem affect the accuracy/consistency problems I’m having? Is it just inconsistent ignition?

I did buy some Win209 primers today to try as I read a few places that Knights tend to have much less blowback using Win209 primers, whether true or not I don’t know.


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If your spent primers are sticking in the breech plug and you have to dig them out, yes the blowback to that extent can affect your accuracy and probably more than you think.

Personally, I think you're in too much of a hurry and are not allowing yourself enough time or flexibility to get the accuracy you feel should be there. The first thing I'd do in your shoes is address the blow by issue with plug/primer by shimming until the primers come out clean after firing so that ignition is consistent. The next thing I'd do is buy up some sabots of various makers [smooth and crush ribbed] and several brands of bullets of varying weights and spend some range time with the gun using a lower end moderate powder charge and simply shoot for groups. Don't even try to tighten groups up or change the adjustments for windage or elevation. Just shoot to see which combination of bullet/charge/sabot delivers the smallest tightest group as the gun sits.

Once I knew what shot good and where, I'd start adjusting the sight to put the group where it should be at a closer range, 25 or 50 yards....I always start figuring a gun out at 25 yards to save steps if a spotting scope isn't handy. Get it on at the shorter range then adjust for 100 yards using different charges using the tightest shooting bullet/sabot combination.

I acquired a new Accura V2 last fall but didn't shoot it until winter had most of the fluff off the range and I could shoot without feeling hurried. I shot maybe 15 sessions thru the cold months and finally found that my gun had a serious liking for .430 300 grain XTPs. My gun will shoot the .45 cal XTP well, but not nearly as tight as the .44 caliber cousin. The gun likes a green crush rib sabot over a plain green sabot too. In 5 shots it is near to same hole accurate at 100 yards with a 77 grain weighed charge of 209 powder and a CCI magnum primer. I also found that the 44 al 300 grain deep curls also shooting smack in the middle of this group without a cent's worth of change.

Its ok to expect a lot out of your gun for service and accuracy but you really need to put some serious effort into finding and developing loads that deliver the best of the best in accuracy and it seldom comes quick or easy. When you hit the range with a black powder weapon, don't even try to compare it to a centerfire as there are far too many variables you'll have to overcome with the black powder to determine what load is the most consistent. Once you have a working load developed, its all practice from there. I started shooting my Accura in late December and burned up close to 2 canisters of the 209 powder before I figured out that for me I needed to weigh my powder charges and try some different sabots. It was late August and nearly 6 canisters of 209 powder before I finally said to myself that I was truly happy with what the gun can do. Your gun will shoot, you just need to slow down and shoot it a bunch with different bullet weights, bullet diameters, and sabots using ONE charge weight or volume. Once you find the sweet one, its all downhill.
 
X2. You did good Tom.

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Thanks MrTom.

I definitely agree that I was hurrying, as I was expecting too much too soon. The problem is for me is I have very few opportunities to spend a lot of time at the range. I know there’s a crazy amount that can go into getting accurate shots, I just thought I’d have a little better luck than I did.

I think I might need to stock up on a ton of billets/sabots. And powder. And primers.


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herschel conyers said:
Spent primers not falling out- recock the bolt and pull the trigger, that will reset the cup in the primer and should fall out. Win 209 s are longer and should cut down on blowback. It may still need a shim or two in the breech plug.

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Not sure if this changes anything or not but the spent primers don’t stick in the Breech plug, they stick in the slot in the bolt face.


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Right you are primers sticking in bolt face. Recock bolt pull trigger , the fireing pin drives the battery cup back into the primer case. Rotate the rifle to the right and the primer should fall out. I use win 209 (blue box) shot shell primers. The win 209 muzzleloading primers will not ignite bh209 reliably.

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herschel conyers said:
Right you are primers sticking in bolt face. Recock bolt pull trigger , the fireing pin drives the battery cup back into the primer case. Rotate the rifle to the right and the primer should fall out. I use win 209 (blue box) shot shell primers. The win 209 muzzleloading primers will not ignite bh209 reliably.

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Ok I’ll have to try that. Next time out (after this nasty flu). I was using CCI209M, just bought some Win209 (blue box) primers. I’ll have to see how those work. Read somewhere online that someone switched to those in their knight and that solved the blowback issue by itself.


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Win209s ignite BH209 100% of the time in all my Lehigh original plugs. Not a single hangfire or anything. They are also much cleaner than the CCI209M or regular CCI209. Fed209As almost seal but not quite. They would stick a little occasionally.

If you want the best, have Bestill custom fit one of his bushing plugs. Price is super reasonable if you can take the measurements and all he has to do is a minor adjustment to the plugs overall length. I think they were about $80
 
Kraig said:
EDITED TO ADD: I was having almost a 100% failure to remove the spent primers too. Had to remove bolt every time and use a screwdriver. Using CCI209M. Upon further investigating, the primers seem to be fouled up pretty good, probably 75% of the time. Is this a sign of too much blowback? And could this contribute to loss of accuracy/consistency? If so, would switching to the Federal 209A or Win209 primers be better?

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Sorry about getting here late... but maybe I can help if you have not already solved this problem...

With the Lehigh/Knight the last thing you need to ignite BH is a Mag primer. The W209 is really your best option because of the length of the primer. Even you switch it really sounds like you will still have a problem with blow back and possible sticking primers.

Wait first, have you been cleaning the 'flash channel' on the BP to clear it of carbon, ESPECIALLY if you are shooting mag 209's.

bp_diagram.jpg


I think GM54 has already touched on the a solution for the problem.... but I will add that you probably have a real 'headspace' problem. Besides Bestill solution you could have two other options.

1. Contact Knight via email. Address it to Justin Perry, explain your problem, which he is really familiar with and he will get it fixed for you.

2. Follow this link and see if reading it might help you fix the problem...

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28388

After reading if you have any other questions - ask away.
 
sabotloader said:
Kraig said:
EDITED TO ADD: I was having almost a 100% failure to remove the spent primers too. Had to remove bolt every time and use a screwdriver. Using CCI209M. Upon further investigating, the primers seem to be fouled up pretty good, probably 75% of the time. Is this a sign of too much blowback? And could this contribute to loss of accuracy/consistency? If so, would switching to the Federal 209A or Win209 primers be better?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry about getting here late... but maybe I can help if you have not already solved this problem...

With the Lehigh/Knight the last thing you need to ignite BH is a Mag primer. The W209 is really your best option because of the length of the primer. Even you switch it really sounds like you will still have a problem with blow back and possible sticking primers.

Wait first, have you been cleaning the 'flash channel' on the BP to clear it of carbon, ESPECIALLY if you are shooting mag 209's.

bp_diagram.jpg


I think GM54 has already touched on the a solution for the problem.... but I will add that you probably have a real 'headspace' problem. Besides Bestill solution you could have two other options.

1. Contact Knight via email. Address it to Justin Perry, explain your problem, which he is really familiar with and he will get it fixed for you.

2. Follow this link and see if reading it might help you fix the problem...

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28388

After reading if you have any other questions - ask away.

As far as cleaning the flash channel, I did use a 1/8” drill bit after about 12 shots. Problem is, the primer was sticking since the first shot. Actually, was sticking since the first primer (fouled the barrel a few times ).

I contacted Knight, explained the problem, and he sounded confident it was due to blowback (which was my assumption already), and said he will send a new breech plug, which I received a couple days ago. Haven’t tried it yet though. I also bought some Win209’s, so hopefully the combination of those 2 will solve the problem.

I understand nothing is perfect, but it’s just a little frustrating that I spent the extra dollars on a Knight due to their reputation and it’s been more of a pain to shoot than anything. Never had any of these issues with my Optima that was a third the price.

Again, hopefully the problem is solved. Just need to head to the range whenever free time shows up.


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Kraig, when you install the new plug and if you read that post on shimming, there is a method to tell if you are getting the correct head space. If you remove the hammer assembly from the bolt and insert the bolt in the rifle and the primer in the nose you will be able to feel if you are getting compression of the primer.

It is unfortunate that your rifle did not come the way you would have liked it. With the Knight bolt there are several things that can effect the headspace including the length of primer you choose to use. I really hope you get it all worked out.

O and as Ron indicated the 'flash channel' is larger than you might think. You do need a 5/32" bit for that project.
 
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