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Satokad

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Good Afternoon Folks,

I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. I bought a CVA 50 cal Optimav2. Haven't fired it yet (maybe today, but tomorrow for sure). Lots to read and learn about and, as with my other firearms and reloading boards, lots of varying opinions. I thought I might take you all along on my journey and solicit feedback along the way. I will offer things I have done or bought, and my rationale behind it. Then, let the conversation begin. Sorry I don't have a campfire to sit around.

When I bought the Optima, the salesman said he used only White Hot pellets and Powerbelt bullets. Sounded good to me so that's what I bought. I saw how much into White Hots CVA is, so I figured I must be doing OK. I was a little dismayed to see how much negative information there was regarding these. One of the things that caught my eye was the consistent lack of pass-through and blood trail. I was thinking it must be a small percentage, but then I watched a YouTube video review of Powerbelts and the guy hit a doe at like 80 yards and the bullet was resting against the inside of the hide. That confirmed what I had read (although he still harvested the doe).
One of the loads I will test is 2 White Hot pellets and the Powerbelt. I'm sure it will print well on paper, but now I have concerns about its performance in the field. My shots will likely be 100 yards or less.
I also found a nice deal on Hornady Great Plains Muzzleloading bullets in 385 gr. I like the idea of full size conical bullets. They seem to have a following but I'm not sure if I am confusing rifled with smooth bore muzzleloaders. Please let me know if I am on the right track here. My big question for this would be in whether or not these type bullets have a tendency to lead the barrel. If they are OK, I can cast my own down the road.
I also bought some Harvester Crush Rib sabots and some Hornady XTP 300 gr .452 bullets. I already had the 250 grain ones from loading 45 Colt. My main concern here is in the plastic fouling and if it is an issue. I'm guessing it's not because this combo seems to be very popular.
Then I went and got some #40 Drill Cloth and Pillow Ticking at Joann Fabrics to make patches for the round balls I wanted to try out. The patch lube I am starting with is a 5:1 Denatured Alcohol/Castor Oil mix. I read on one of the threads about a gentleman who started using this and swore off Murphy's and Ballistol mixes completely. If you have tried this, please let me know how it went. I figured I had to start somewhere. I do recognize that accuracy may be lagging in the PRB department, but my plan is to start with one White Hot pellet. Of course, this led me to start thinking about loose powders and, before I knew it, I had a jug of Blackhorn 209 in hand and the BH 209 Breech Plug ordered. Also thinking I might pick up a jug of Triple Seven just to see how much I can dial this in. (On a side note, it took me 2 days to figure out that T7 was the Triple Seven. I can really be an idiot sometimes). My main reason for wanting to work up a good round ball combo is for cost and small game opportunities.
I have also bought some of the extras like a range rod, powder tubes, starter, powder measure, and flask.
Another question I had, just to make sure I'm not blowing myself up, is if all powders are measured the same way, by volume? To be more specific, is 90 gr of powder the same, regardless of product. I'm pretty sure it is, and I couldn't find anything to the contrary. Just wanted to double check to make sure that different powders didn't have different measures specific to their own density.
While we are on the subject, I also wanted to confirm that measured powder is accurate when it is first poured, and not as it settles.
Season starts next Friday and goes through the 31st of December so I have time to fine tune this. Buck tags are hard to come by so it will just be me and the ladies this first time out.
Sorry for the novel, but lots of options and opinions. I get that the best combo will be the one my Optima shoots well, but your experiences also help me understand and, let's face it, it's fun talking about this stuff. I try telling my wife, but she just doesn't seem real interested....except my mother-in-law thought it was a hoot going to the fabric store with me.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
 
It seems to me that you’re trying to go in an awful lot of directions at once and you’ve got about a week to get where you’re going. At this point, I’d pick one powder and one bullet and see what you can get it to do. My choice would be the BH209 and the 300 grain XTP’s but others might think differently.
Maybe I missed it, but what do you have for primers?
 
I do tend to jump in the deep end, head first. I like to see what different things can do and I have all day tomorrow to play. The round ball is for fun (not for the deer hunt), and the others were just a case of seeing which works best. I’ll start with the XTPs and see how they do. Thanks for the advise.
I’ll be using CCI 209 primers. I also have Winchester and can get others easily if needed.
 
I use the W209 (Blue box) primers in my V2 and they are pretty much spotless when removed. They seem to fit my plug best which is the CVA Blackhorn plug.
 
My load in our CVA rifles for adults is

110gr BH209 by volume
250gr Barnes TEZ in a smooth black Harvester sabot
Win 209 primer

this combo has some recoil so if your a little recoil sensitive, start at 80gr of BH209


I like all copper bullets that don't have lead and fragment but those 300gr XTP will work from all the reviews I've read. The crush rib sabots may be too loose but you'll have to try them and see.
 
rangerod said:
If you like full bore try the Thor's. Check em out at muzzloader. Com. They shoot great out of my Optima with 100 grns of Black Horn.

I just went to the website. It said I needed to buy the Sample Pack first to determine correct sizing, but there was no way to order them. Guess I'll give them a call on Monday.
 
I agree that if you only have a week or so till season pick one powder and one bullet for now. Then play with the other stuff later. Some guys spend several months fine tuning one powder and bullet to a rifle. You may even need to swap sabots for one that gives a different bullet/sabot to Bore fit. I would not expect to shoot all those powders and bullets in one day either. You could wind up pulling your hair out and wanting to wrap the rifle around a fence post. ML and CF are two different animals and don't act the same. CVA makes and sells the Power belt so it is in their best interest to push them. They cost way to much for what you get. One thing to remember about them to to not push them too hard or, depending on the one you got, they could blow up on the deer's hide. Plastic Fouling is pretty much just a wives tale. Many moons ago the polymers used were not as good but you will not see that anymore with current polymer formulations. Yes all Black power and subs are measured by Volume and you use the same measure. Some of us do Weigh Blackhorn BUT there is a conversion that you must use, I.E 100gns by volume is not 100gns by weight.. As to measuring it and it settling, Some guys just pour and some tap the measure then top it off. Which ever way you go just make sure you do it consistently each time. For ML consistency leads to accuracy. Of the bullets and powders to mentioned, IF you have the BH plug I would go wit the BH209 and the 300gn XTP. Very good deer medicine. i would start at 90gnV and work up in 5 or 10gn increments till you get the accuracy you want.
 
ShawnT said:
I agree that if you only have a week or so till season pick one powder and one bullet for now. Then play with the other stuff later. Some guys spend several months fine tuning one powder and bullet to a rifle. You may even need to swap sabots for one that gives a different bullet/sabot to Bore fit. I would not expect to shoot all those powders and bullets in one day either. You could wind up pulling your hair out and wanting to wrap the rifle around a fence post. ML and CF are two different animals and don't act the same. CVA makes and sells the Power belt so it is in their best interest to push them. They cost way to much for what you get. One thing to remember about them to to not push them too hard or, depending on the one you got, they could blow up on the deer's hide. Plastic Fouling is pretty much just a wives tale. Many moons ago the polymers used were not as good but you will not see that anymore with current polymer formulations. Yes all Black power and subs are measured by Volume and you use the same measure. Some of us do Weigh Blackhorn BUT there is a conversion that you must use, I.E 100gns by volume is not 100gns by weight.. As to measuring it and it settling, Some guys just pour and some tap the measure then top it off. Which ever way you go just make sure you do it consistently each time. For ML consistency leads to accuracy. Of the bullets and powders to mentioned, IF you have the BH plug I would go wit the BH209 and the 300gn XTP. Very good deer medicine. i would start at 90gnV and work up in 5 or 10gn increments till you get the accuracy you want.

Thank you, ShawnT. I will have the plug on Monday (according to USPS tracking, anyway). I will stick to the One Powder/One Bullet theory since I don't have much hair left to pull out and I doubt catastrophic failure will survive the warranty inspection if there's wood splinters lodged in the barrel. Maybe tomorrow I'll just mess around with the PRB so as to get a better understanding of loading and firing.
I appreciate the advice.
 
halloflin said:
I use the XTP 300s with the geeen crush rib sabot. Work great!

Hence the confusion. I went and looked at the Harvester website, and it said the green sabots are for 44 cal bullets. Is that what you're shooting?
Then I noticed that there's a long and a short black sabot for <300gr or >300gr, yet my package doesn't say which it is. I did end up Googling the product number and found out it's just for .451 and .452 bullets.
 
The Long and short black are Smooth sided sabots. If you want to try a smooth sided one get the short black. Seems it or the crushrib works well with the .452 diameter bullets in CVA. MMP HPH-24 would be close to the Short black. There are several different sabots you can try when working up a load. Some are thicker than others so you can tailor the fit to the bore with different bullets. In your 50 cal rifle you can shoot the 44mag (.429-.430) bullets in the green sabots and you can also use the 45cal (.452-.452) bullets in the Black sabots, then there are the 40cal and .458 diameter bullets. You can use any of those as long as you match it with the appropriate sabot.

Check out this Sticky from the Inline forum.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9798

By the Way they ship those rifles with some Preservative grease in them so be sure to scrub that bore very clean with some solvent. When shooting BH you can clean with the same solvents you use in CF rifles. One thing that is recommended is to use a good Synthetic oil for treating the bore after cleaning. I personally use Butches Bore shine solvent and Montana Extreme Bore conditioner for my lube.

With the White Hots or the T7 you can use Windex with Ammonia to swab and clean with.
 
Satokad said:
halloflin said:
I use the XTP 300s with the geeen crush rib sabot. Work great!

Hence the confusion. I went and looked at the Harvester website, and it said the green sabots are for 44 cal bullets. Is that what you're shooting?
Then I noticed that there's a long and a short black sabot for <300gr or >300gr, yet my package doesn't say which it is. I did end up Googling the product number and found out it's just for .451 and .452 bullets.

I use the .430 300 grain 44 caliber bullets:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/10104 ... -box-of-50

and the Harvester 44 cal green crush rib sabots:

https://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product ... 1150440.do
 
ShawnT said:
By the Way they ship those rifles with some Preservative grease in them so be sure to scrub that bore very clean with some solvent. When shooting BH you can clean with the same solvents you use in CF rifles. One thing that is recommended is to use a good Synthetic oil for treating the bore after cleaning. I personally use Butches Bore shine solvent and Montana Extreme Bore conditioner for my lube.

With the White Hots or the T7 you can use Windex with Ammonia to swab and clean with.

I spent some time cleaning out the barrel. I had read about the shipping grease so I was ready.
I was at the store and looked at the Butch's Bore Shine. When you say you use it and Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner as your lube, what exactly are you referring to? Just as the lube while your gun is stored, or lube for patches and such?
Thanks.
 
Satokad said:
rangerod said:
If you like full bore try the Thor's. Check em out at muzzloader. Com. They shoot great out of my Optima with 100 grns of Black Horn.

I just went to the website. It said I needed to buy the Sample Pack first to determine correct sizing, but there was no way to order them. Guess I'll give them a call on Monday.
Look again and you will see that they make a one size fits all. It has slits up the side at the cupped base. I bought some of the 250 grn but haven't had a chance to try them yet.
 
rangerod said:
Look again and you will see that they make a one size fits all. It has slits up the side at the cupped base. I bought some of the 250 grn but haven't had a chance to try them yet.

Yes. I believe that’s the kind I have. Bought them at Cabela’s. The product number is different than any of the ones I saw on the website. Just seemed odd that it wasn’t listed....at least, not where I was looking, anyway. Thanks.
 
Satokad said:
ShawnT said:
By the Way they ship those rifles with some Preservative grease in them so be sure to scrub that bore very clean with some solvent. When shooting BH you can clean with the same solvents you use in CF rifles. One thing that is recommended is to use a good Synthetic oil for treating the bore after cleaning. I personally use Butches Bore shine solvent and Montana Extreme Bore conditioner for my lube.

With the White Hots or the T7 you can use Windex with Ammonia to swab and clean with.

I spent some time cleaning out the barrel. I had read about the shipping grease so I was ready.
I was at the store and looked at the Butch's Bore Shine. When you say you use it and Montana Extreme Bore Conditioner as your lube, what exactly are you referring to? Just as the lube while your gun is stored, or lube for patches and such?
Thanks.

Butches Bore shine is a solvent for cleaning the bore. The Montana extreme bore conditioner is a lube to protect the bore after cleaning to prevent rust.
 
ShawnT said:
Butches Bore shine is a solvent for cleaning the bore. The Montana extreme bore conditioner is a lube to protect the bore after cleaning to prevent rust.

Got it. Thanks.
 
Well, today was a hoot...for a while. I started off with 2 White Hots and the saboted XTP (which turned out to be 250 gr because I truly am a dumb bunny). First shot at 50 yards was about 5" right of center. Please keep in mind that no scopes are allowed during Muzzleloader season in South Dakota. First shot was standing and firing. I adjusted the rear sight to bring it in.
I thought I'd do better resting on my backpack. For the second shot, I hit about 3" right of center. The backpack stabilized my hold on center, but I had adjusted the sight the wrong way. I moved it back the right way.
I didn't swab the barrel because I read that White Hot pellets don't need it. I may have to argue that point.The third sabot was hard to get down and I definitely had to punch it through resistance about two inches above where it should have seated. I'm guessing that was the beginning of a crud ring.
The third shot hit about 1/2" above and left of dead center. Not bad for these old eyes. I then adjusted the sights for elevation to try to get to 4" high to be on at 100 yards. I swabbed and brushed the barrel.
Number 4 went about 4" high and 1/2" left of center. Thought that was pretty good. Quick swab again.
5th shot was only 2" high and 1" left of center. For this shot, I knew it was low when it fired. No swab on this round.
6th shot was 4 1/2" high and 3/4" left. I felt that I was in a good place. I wanted to shoot some 50 yard round ball before I moved the target to 100 yards. I then swabbed and scrubbed the barrel.
For the PRB, I used some #40 drill cloth that had been soaked in a denatured alcohol/castor oil mix then allowed to dry. I also switched to Triple Seven powder just to see how the process flowed with loose powder. I used a 50 gr charge. First shot was two inches high and dead on line. That was fun. I then loaded a round ball with a dry patch spritzed with Windex/Castor Oil. Got the ball seated and when I pulled out my rod, the jag was missing. Turns out it had broken at the screws. Of course, part of the whole dumb bunny thing is that I had left my range rod at home. My day came to a rather quick end.
I'm a little irritated that the jag broke, but I was able to remove the piece out of the ramrod so it is still usable. I will remember to bring my range rod moving forward. I may go out tomorrow to mess around with the PRB and shoot the 100 yard target to see how I end up. I'm thinking that it will be a little tough lining it up well with open sights. Maybe I'll go by one of those deer paper targets.
I can honestly say that even though equipment failure brought an early end to the day (actually, my poor planning was probably the bigger culprit), it was much more fun that shooting my .270 and I believe I am one range session away from becoming addicted.
Thank you for all your help and advice. One more question. Will the 250 XTP be OK (our does are not all that tough) or should I start over and work up with the 300 gr?
Thanks again.
 

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