Plastic wads?

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FredB

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So I'm having difficulty getting acceptable accuracy using lead conicals. I hunt Idaho, so all lead, full-caliber is the rule. Please don't tell me about the awesome accuracy you get out of your favorite sabot, it'll only make me sad. :( I do have an .54 cal MK-85 that gives me great accuracy with sabots, (to hunt in Oklahoma, where I currently live) and with 405 grain lead Powerbelts. MOA, or close to it. Not so much with other conicals I've tried. And the PBs leave a lot of lead in the barrel, I guess because they use very soft lead. Also, at 405 grains, the trajectory is pretty round. Thinking that lighter projectiles would fly flatter, I got a 50 cal TC Northwest Explorer, but I can't seem to find the right load combination. So thinking about the MK-85, I realized that both the sabots and PBs use a plastic base to create a good gas seal. So, now I'm wondering if I can use a plastic disc with other conicals to improve accuracy. Kind of like a felt wad, only plastic. (I tried felt.) I found something like what I was envisioning at mmpsabots.com/store/50-cal-bbsb-ballistic-bridge-sub-base/ . I'll try to attach a picture. Has anyone tried these?
 

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I make both types from press mounted Wad punches, i get my material in bulk sheets from Buffalo Arms. I make these in .36, .45, .50, and .54 Cal, the plastic you speak of is actually called LDPE (Low-density polyethylene) i make them in .060 thickness, i can get the bulk sheets in .030, or .060, Most of our top shooters swear by, and recommend the .060 thickness, i have been told by trusted sources that if all i had was .030 Wads to use 2 of them stacked, There Must be something to the .060 thickness? I went with that advise and i have had VERY good luck with the .060 Wads in the LDPE (Low-density polyethylene) and .060 Vegetable fibre Over powder Wads. I have never tried the .030 alone so I can’t say if there is any difference or not?

I have found that different bullets will sometimes prefer a different Wad material, example being- my Grease Groove bullets tend to prefer an 1/8” wool felt Wad to shoot at their best (i use oversize store bought Oxyoke brand wool felt, i use .50 Wool felt wads in my .45, .54 Wads in my .50, and .58 in my .54 Cals) My Paper Patched bullets prefer the .060 Vege fibre, or .060 LDPE, Both of these .060 wads create a VERY GOOD solid gas seal, They go down the bore fairly tight from start to finish, when seating them you can hear air being pushed out the Nipple.
 
Do you prefer lubed, or dry wool felt wads for your grease-grooved bullets?
I also found your post about cross-patches to tighten up the fit on soft lead grease grooved bullets interesting. I've had the same problem with TC maxi-hunter, and maxi-balls in my TC Northwest explorer. After some initial resistance, they fairly drop down to the powder, with very little pressure beyond the weight of the ramrod. And the result is about 4" groups at 50yds. :d'oh!:
I'm also thinking it's time to have the QLA removed.
 
FredB said:
Do you prefer lubed, or dry wool felt wads for your grease-grooved bullets?
I also found your post about cross-patches to tighten up the fit on soft lead grease grooved bullets interesting. I've had the same problem with TC maxi-hunter, and maxi-balls in my TC Northwest explorer. After some initial resistance, they fairly drop down to the powder, with very little pressure beyond the weight of the ramrod. And the result is about 4" groups at 50yds. :d'oh!:
I'm also thinking it's time to have the QLA removed.

The Wool Wads that i use are store bought Oxyoke brand and they are pre lubed, They are very lightly lubed, if i squeeze them between my thumb and index finger i can see a trace of oil/lube on my finger. I am gonna stop buying these store bought Wool wads and start ordering bulk 1/8” Wool felt material from Durofelt online and punch them out myself. 1/2” Hollow punch for .50, and a 9/16 Hollow punch for .54 Cal

Maxi Balls are NOTORIOUS for loosening up about halfway down the bore, Of the 3 bands on a Maxi ball the only band that actually engraves the riflings is the top (Driving Band) the bottom and middle bands are intentionally undersized for easier starting/loading, If your rifle is a .50 cal get some lubed Roundball patches for .30-.39 Cal in .010, as thin as you can get them, center them up on top of the bore the best you can and push the Maxi down on top of it, use your short starter, then push them down, this will tighten them up! And they will stay good n tight all the way to the powder!! Group shoot and see what kind of accuracy you get? With that QLA muzzle these might be a bit trickier to get center? I tested this with Paper strips as well and accuracy was not effected at all, the paper strips was with my Slip fit paper patch bullets. I filled my Doe tag this year with this method, it gave me confidence that my Paper Patched bullet would NOT slip off the the powder charge

Here


Like this


Or This is probably better yet for tightening up a Maxi ball, this will load easier than above due to the single strip not ‘bunching’ up, this is a full size .50, .54 lubed round ball patch, get the thinnest patches you can get
 
As for the QLA Muzzle, I ABSOLUTELY DESPISE them! The only way i would buy a rifle that had a QLA muzzle is if i could get it REALLY cheap and i wanted it for the Stock, Lock, parts. In my opinion TC’s QLA Muzzle is GARBAGE

I have tested different types of OP Wads in stock 1:48 twist TC Barrels with QLA Muzzles and the results were ALL OVER the place. Here is a good example, I helped my dad get his TC Renegade shooting good, it has a QLA muzzle, Dad was shooting Maxi Balls, and Lyman Plains bullets with a Wool felt Wad in a 2-3” Group at 80 Yards or so, he pretty much cut the 2” bullseye out of the Target. The next time we got out together to shoot our rifles I brought along some of my new .060 Vege Fibre Over Powder wads for him to try (they shoot AWESOME in EVERY rifle i own WITHOUT a QLA Muzzle) Dad gets his rifle loaded, using the New Vege Wads, He takes the shot and totally misses the entire 2 ft square target?? I swore i seen something kick up way over top of the target? (This was from a benchrest, and My dad is a good SOLID open sight shooter) He loads up again and shoots, that time i seen dirt fly up, and the weeds part several feet in front of the target??? That bullet bounced up from the ground and busted my wooden target frame :shock: LOL! Now what in the hell caused that?? He loads back up and shoots again, Same thing, that bullet hit the Ground as well (Same powder charge, and same bullets that shot great just a few weeks before) The only thing we did that was different this trip out was used the .060 Vege wads that i had cut for him instead of the Wool felt, so we changed back to the wool wads and that fixed the problem, but even tho the wool wads shoot decent for him, every now and then he will get an AWOL Flyer, and i mean totally miss a target?

QLA Muzzle Guys, FIRST i say to shoot WITHOUT an over powder wad and hopefully your rifle shoots good that way. Any of you reading this that have a QLA Muzzled TC Rifle and doubt what i am saying, I ask you to try a few different types of Wads and see for yourself, Try Hard Card Wads .060 Vege Fibre, and then try Wool felt wads (wool felt will be more forgiving) I have a wall standing full of Muzzleloaders WITHOUT QLA Muzzles and NONE of them act up like that! They each have their own preferences, but even at their absolute worst they stil shoot better than these 2 stock QLA muzzle TC barrels at their VERY BEST. My theory on the QLA is the gasses are escaping around the bullet differently when the bullet ENTERS the QLA before exiting the muzzle (which could cause the bullet to do anything) What else could cause a bullet to fly over the entire target 1 time, and the next time dig a trench in the ground in front of the Target, bounce up and go through the target sideways? We aren’t talking a few inches here, we are talking several feet! I have no experience with ANY other rifles besides TC equipped with a QLA muzzle, So maybe other brands with QLA muzzles are better? I can say for a fact that I have 2 Stock .54 Cal TC barrels sitting here with QLA muzzles and both of them are not worth more than the price of scrap iron, They are ABSOLUTE JUNK! Both of these will eventually end up shipping out to Robert Hoyt to rebore to .58 Cal so i dont have to deal with cutting the barrels down, under ribs, and new front sight dovetails cut. I avoid a QLA cut Muzzle like the plague!!
 
The above methods i show for tightening up a Maxi Ball are ideas, they need to be tested for Accuracy/performance, and repeatability in each rifle, and not just trusted that they will shoot the same. In my testing i found that accuracy was not effected, but again test for yourself!

Being confident in our gear is important, and certainly not all of us think alike, what makes me confident might not you? And vise versa. It has taken me a lot of time, powder, and lead to get the confidence i now have. A good tight fitting bullet that i could trust 100% to stay put on the powder charge in the field, day in, and day out was an obstacle i had to overcome before i would trust hunting with a Muzzleloader, The above methods (and bumping up the lead hardness for my Grease Groove bullets) have worked VERY well for me! Family, and friends that know me WELL say that i am a Perfectionist, Meticulous, picky, etc. And I don’t argue that. My signature quote at the bottom describes me to a T
 
I have used a sub-bridge like you have pictured under a 460g No Excuses all-lead conical in my Mountaineer with very good results. I believe they are only available in .50 cal, however. If you wanted to try a similar wad/gas check in a .54 I have heard of guys trimming the petals off of sabots and using the base in the same way a sub-bridge works. I have also used veggie fiber wads in my .50's and they work very well also and are much more affordable than the sub-bridges. In fact, I really can't justify the cost of the sub-bridges when they don't demonstrate any significant advantage over the veg wads.
 

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