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June NMLRA nationals 2017

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June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby bestill » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:33 pm

Well today was opening day of nationals.

I shot M5 match which is challenging.
5 shots for score at 100,200,300,400,500 yds.
This match is no practice and no sighters and takes 5 - 45 minute relays to complete so conditions change drastically from start to finish. Only use front rest and support rear with shoulder off bench
My load today was 120 gr by volume of blackhorn and 270 emax at 2180 fps.
Shot my personal best at 400, 500 and my personal worst at 200, 300 grrr.
So not a great match for me but extremely happy with 500. Picture below 500 yds 1 st shot highest cold clean bore #2 still high 1.5 moa down adjust next 3 happy happy


Image

This shows my bronc II up top left setting 500yd target

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This me shooting 500 yds

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Friendship is a absolutely beautiful range and some great people. Range sets in a bowl so wind flags blow in every direction.

Good luck to all competitors and safe travels

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby ENCORE50A » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:12 pm

Good job on that 500yd target. :yeah: Did you have much wind to deal with?
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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby bestill » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:25 pm

Not bad for friendship but as you know its a tuff place to shoot .

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby Dougs136Schwartz » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:34 pm

Nice shooting Jeff . I enjoyed very much shooting with you and your brother last weekend. I enjoy shooting with friends as much if not more than the competition itself . In all honesty we are all shooting against ourselves.

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby bestill » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:56 pm

Rite on had great day and fellowship

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby 1874sharpsshooter » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:01 pm

What are the results so far?

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby ENCORE50A » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:47 pm

1874sharpsshooter wrote:What are the results so far?


It isn't over yet. However I'm hearing there's a lot of pitted of shooters.
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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby bestill » Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:47 am

I will do my best to update inline match results sunday.

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby bestill » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:47 pm

Update its over. I struggled a bit but had a great shoot. Had some new shooters which was a blast.

IH agg
1st Doug Schwartz 168 knight 1-20 mountaineer
2nd Jason ? New shooter 164 knight mountaineer 1-20
3rd Rick Weber 164
Gun ?
4 th Jeff Fisk 160 Remington 700ml 45 1-28 twist

M5 match 859

1st Doug Schwartz 238 knight 500
2nd Greg Fisk Bestill Creations omega
3rd place ?
4th place Jeff Fisk Bestill Creations Remington 700ml

Match 310 long range silhouette
1st Jeff Fisk

Match 321 creedmore 500 yds
Jeff Fisk 74
Jeff Fisk 73
Bob Wetzler 73
Bob shot outstanding with a 50 cal. Ouch should get recoil award

Great shoot and awesome event as always

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby ENCORE50A » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:16 pm

Congrats and thanks for posting the scores.

Doug, you're doing it right I see :wink:
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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby 52Bore » Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:08 pm

Thanks
I was wondering after we talked Monday if the scoring room would change you and Doug's score for shooting the practice bull at 100 & 200.
A little disappointed in you boys to learn you all posted practice targets the relay prior to shooting for score at each distance, especially since we just shot this exact match last month - Bob and I just shook our heads..
Good shooting none the less as it was good to see everyone and some new shooters, I think I recounted 11 people who wish to come back next year and bring their in-lines (I left Wednesday).
See you all in September.

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby ENCORE50A » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:30 am

52Bore wrote:Thanks
I was wondering after we talked Monday if the scoring room would change you and Doug's score for shooting the practice bull at 100 & 200.
A little disappointed in you boys to learn you all posted practice targets the relay prior to shooting for score at each distance, especially since we just shot this exact match last month - Bob and I just shook our heads..
Good shooting none the less as it was good to see everyone and some new shooters, I think I recounted 11 people who wish to come back next year and bring their in-lines (I left Wednesday).
See you all in September.


Just wondering Rick, if the M5 is 5 shots, one at each target and targets are always shot left to right, why wouldn't the practice target not be included? As long as there's only one hole in 5 different targets, shot from left to right, why would the scoring room nit pick? I have a feeling someone challenged it.

I'd like a further understanding of the "no practice rule" please, especially since many are of the opinion you created these new rules, or were part of creating them?
So you and Bob are of the opinion that anyone who shoots the M5, just walks to the line with a cold clean barrel and starts shooting for score? They can't foul their barrel either? Is there some rule that the shooters can't shoot to check their scope settings prior to shooting for score? If that's the rule or your opinion, then IMO that needs and should require a change also. You have to have a little common sense about it. What about the shooter that comes from home where, if he's even fortunate to have a range that allows 500yd shooting, his shooting was all done at 3,000 feet elevation, then now has to shoot at 700 feet? Then no matter what the equipment may be, how many ranges allow shooters the ability to practice at 500yds? I think there are more than just you and Bob shaking their heads....

Here's a really great example of how many 500yd ranges there are in Michigan: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/L ... 4921_7.pdf

Isn't the September shoot the shoot that you finally got BH209 banned from that competition, blaming it on the NRA? I'm hearing from multiple people on FB this is the case. Please explain... I'm hearing this but would like to understand it. Especially since records currently exist from using BH209 in the September Nationals shoot.
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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby 45cal » Sun Jun 18, 2017 6:10 pm

good shooting by all

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby 52Bore » Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:22 pm

M5 was all my idea, I presented it to the past President and former Managing Director 1.5-2 years ago.
Current President asked me last fall my thoughts on the In-line matches - I said pretty easy, match program has already states Production rifle, just enforce it. Then I mentioned the M5 for the custom rifles.
Pretty simple.
Now it seems I've been tasked to assist with the Rifle Committee on In-lines. We've already have some good discussions/thoughts and Scott and Doug have given some good feedback.

Your 1st paragraph - I would suspect Jeff and Doug both challenged their target. Jeff mentioned the target to Bob and I on Monday and how apparently the target room scored it. My reply, they score 100's of targets and pay no attention to the practice bull and the other 5 bulls are clearly marked 1-5.

2nd paragraph: M5 match has been posted for a month and no questions - NOT A SINGLE ONE.
Learn how to use a ballistic chart like all us who have no 3, 4 or 500 - no one complained after the match last month. I bet they even work for people who shoot at 3000 feet and 700 feet? Certainly one with a custom rifle is beyond the entry level ML.

3rd: Good.

4th: I have no idea what you are referring to - sounds like gossip/CNN fake news? (Please share the person(s) you are hearing this from). I believe Scott /Doug asked me a very similar question a few weeks ago about the June shoot (NRA Sponsored) and I told him I don't know of that and don't think so. We'll, it looks as if June has past and now it seems it has moved to September.
I'm not on FB, but I did read where you were banned from the NMLRA FB page - disappointed in you as well, but not surprised.
I will say, when the TN father lost his hand with a Savage Smokeless ML two years ago as a result of his sons bullet exiting 20 feet out the barrel - I then realized the the direct correlation with Smokeless and BH209 properties as I had personally witnessed this phenomenon 4x and 3 of those times were on the range at Friendship. I told the organization (Rifle Committee Chain and Past President) what I had learned. To this day I have never heard anything back - nothing. I've even made recommendations to the International Committee, some were implemented, some not. Those that are not - you'll not see me acting like an A$$ over it.
I have however told the President, Rifle Committee member and a few others, basically anyone who asked it's validity - "If you have a problem with BH209 you need to contact the BATF, as I think it's good for the In-line matches and have no problem with it if it's used respectfully."
IMO, if BH209 fails at the NMLRA it will be on it's own accord or by mis-use by the shooters. Glad to see guys shooting well with 84/120 loads - Like I've stated before "Show people what these In-lines can do". Safely of course.

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby ENCORE50A » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:05 am

I believe you'll find I've spoken in support of the M5, but the no practice, no fouling parts are IMO ridiculous. Nothing in the rules was specifically spelled out, such as IIRC the last match flyer still stated 10 shots at each distance, which ended up being 5 at each distance. However that was for the May match (trial) which worked itself into June's Nationals, where 5 were indicated. There was no explanation concerning no practice and no fouling, which I and many others suspected meant no practice shooting at the target before shooting for score. Such as the 50yd and 100yd targets, where you can shoot as many practice shots as time allows, prior to shooting the 5 for score.

"..M5 match has been posted for a month and no questions - NOT A SINGLE ONE.
Learn how to use a ballistic chart like all us who have no 3, 4 or 500 - no one complained after the match last month. I bet they even work for people who shoot at 3000 feet and 700 feet? Certainly one with a custom rifle is beyond the entry level ML."


There is no serious shooter who is going into a competition using ballistic programs only and having not fired at those ranges. Just like no ethical hunter is going to rely on ballistics charts to shoot at an animal at 500yds, having only been able to practice to 200 or 300yds. For the record, I do know how to use ballistic charts and programs. However, I'm also smart enough to know they can not be solely depended on.
How many times, even on this site and many others, have seasoned shooters told shooters that they must practice at the ranges they intend to shoot? Every seasoned shooter will agree, practice at the ranges you intend to shoot. I don't believe I've ever read where a seasoned shooter recommended relying on ballistics charts/programs only.
I'm supposed to drive 600 miles with the rifle in the back of my truck and have no chance to verify that its still on? I might as well just send a check and stay home.

Now this is hear say, so please clear this up for me. I'm hearing a slightly different story on the May match. I heard, again I heard, as I was not there to witness it, that there were a couple people who did practice prior to the May M5 shoot. Claiming that they didn't have their scope settings. Why didn't they use a ballistics program? If that did happen, which again I'm not saying it did because I wasn't there, was one of those people you?

Now as far as Jeff and/or Doug contesting their targets, I'd have certainly done the same and I certainly support both of them in doing so. There shouldn't have been an issue in the scoring room, as one would hope those persons who do the scoring do it professionally and accurately every time. Its also my understanding that others may have shot the same previously?

The IH........ well its not simple, as evident by the multitude of shooters who are ticked off about it. There's no consistency, double standards and no written defined statement concerning "PRODUCTION". At best, its a guess by someone assuming control. One rifle is illegal, where another same rifle is legal. Say the Rem70ml (example only). The production rifle shot a #11 cap, but a change to the bolt face and BP may be legal. However, take the cheap plastic stock off it and replace it to fit the shooter and its now considered a custom? The Cooper rifle is considered a custom rifle, so said Joe. Is it still considered a custom? How about the Ultimate rifles.... The BP Express is considered a custom rifle, yet the nearly identical Remington Ultimate is considered production? Lets look at the two rifles closely. Both use the identical actions, both use higher quality stocks, where the Rem. B&C (IIRC), comes with pillars, whereas the BP Xpress does not have pillars. Both rifles use custom barrels, the only difference is that UF uses a Lothar Walther barrel and Remington makes their own custom barrels. Speaking of barrels on those rifles, did you know that some of the earliest Remington Ultimate rifles had Lothar Walther barrels? Remington had the ability to make their own custom barrels, which saved them costs. But rest assured, the Remington barrel is a custom barrel. Then Remington IMPROVED their rifle over the BP Xpress, by changing the hardness of the BP, making it removable. Contrary to popular belief, neither the BP Xpress or the Remington ULM are custom target or competition rifles. They are both hunting rifles.
Now I've heard, again heard, that at one time the rule was there had to be at least 1,000 rifles made in a year for a rifle to be considered a production rifle (same model). If that's the case, then the UF BP Xpress would be a production rifle. Its just built in the owner's basement, each identical, vs the Remington built in a factory. Both have model numbers. They are both built as hunting rifles and not for competition.
Shooters are not happy with the changes and decisions made in and to the IH class. I had another very well respected shooter, who you know but will remain anonymous, send me a private message last week and asked if I knew anyone wanting to buy an $800 paper weight. They refuse to shoot the IH class with the changes. Another shooter lost to constant changes.

As far as the BH209 issue and its possibility of not being allowed in the September Nationals. First, I heard this from two very respectable shooters who were present when the statement was made, presumably by Joe Hill. I was told this the day after the May match by both. Now, neither of those two highly respected shooters are members of this site and that said, I'll not be giving you their names. You don't need their names, nor do their names require mentioning. If that means that your of the opinion that I'm not telling the truth about it, well believe what you like.

Now as far as FB, which you admit you don't use. When these changes to the IH class first appeared, I WAS NOT the first to question the loss of bench use for the 200m and 300m silhouettes, or the last. Others clearly beat me to it. Would you be disappointed in them also? Questions were asked, there wasn't any heated arguments. But when it comes to dictators, when you question them there are always ramifications. Quite frankly, when I asked on the Nmlr FB site, I used the words "VERY RESPECTFULLY", when I questioned the loss of the benches. That is when Joe Hill removed my questions and bared me from further comment. However, directly after that, another asked the same question!
The remaining quote still exists: "Nmlra (National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association) Joe Hill here, we've been shooting Silhouettes at friendship since 1990 and there has never been benches on that line until the inline match started. As far as how people are shooting in other places, it doesn't really pertain to us. Shooting from cross sticks is popular with Hunters. The rule also says that youth and seniors can still use benches.
May 24 at 3:21pm · Edited" The reason it says "edited", is because my questions were deleted. https://www.facebook.com/NMLRA/

I'm in no way bashing the NMLRA, on the contrary I'm questioning the modern inline rule changes, as are many others. As dues paying members, we have that right. If I have concerns, I'm going to voice them and its all been very much within reason. This disappoints you? I guess it might, as you do admit responsibility or some part of it.

Personally, I'd like to see this whole mess straightened out once and for all. I'd just love to see Jeff and Greg handle it. Shooting at Friendship is extremely enjoyable, but the constant rule changes deter people. However I will question and not just end up being an "un-thinking follower.

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby Dougs136Schwartz » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:42 am

Listen guys i have not even read everything nor do i want to . I feel terrible about what happened . I apologized to you Rick twice and also Bob . I told Bob to DQ me as soon as i realized it was not allowed . Bob said not to worry about it . I felt terrible about what happened and was gonna DQ myself the following weekend . I would have if others had not done the same thing . The reason i thought it was ok is because before the match in May others were practising and getting numbers before the match . I asked then if that was allowed and Bob said yes . It was a miss understanding on my part . Im sorry.Then when went to the match in June i asked in the office if i could hang practise targets they said yes as long as i didnt shoot and practise in the same relay . I thought it was ok ? ? ? Im not a cheater nor would i want to have some sort of a advantage . I never said anything to anyone at Friendship about any protest. I have no idea even who to talk to to file a protest or a complaint. I never even looked at the score standings all week.Thats not me ! Im shooting against myself period . I would surley hope by now at least some people know i dont need to cheat to be competitive . Thats just not what im about. Again i feel terrible about this that is why i apologized more than once. Myself and others who hung practise targets were the first to shoot the match . Rick you knew then what happened . I immediatly apologized and told Bob to DQ me . By the time i realized it was not allowed it was to late i had already shot . Thats why i said to go ahead and DQ myself . You could of came down and told us exactly how you wanted the match ran . Then at that time shoot the match the same way we did . We were the first people to shoot . Then the next match in September we would of shot it different .I thought it was over and apology excepted but then i get shamed on the internet and made out like im cheating ? I dont know what more i can do to prove myself and i cant apologize any more than i have ? !

On Friday i met a guy that was watching me shoot the pigs at 300 meters . I asked him if he would like to shoot my gun . He said yes and to his surprise he knocked over a pig at 300meters . This boy was so excited . I then asked him if he would like to shoot my gun the following day in the match because i was suppose to help my buddy shoot the match on Saturday but he hurt his shoulder . He at first said no. i left Friendship then the more i thought about it i drove back and found the guy and i insisted that he meet me the following day at 6 30 . Bob Wetzel and I spent the entire day with this boy helping him shoot this match . He was so excited and so appreciative i cant even explain . That felt good and felt right . Now this boy wants a gun bad . Im gonna sell him a gun at a huge loss to help him out and get him started . Thats what this should be about not this bickering over rules and classes. I very much appreciate what Bob (expecially Bob because he started this whole thing) Rick and Joe have done and trying to do . We need to find some common ground . Im going as ask again to please except my apology .

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby 45cal » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:06 pm

thanks Doug, you did fine job helping that young man. You recruited a new Shooter and he finished 2nd. It was a joy and actually lots of fun to watch him shoot. I remember him saying , he had never shot past 100 with Muzzle loader

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby 45cal » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:37 pm

So I think this about what is going to happen . The Matches will be canceled and I truly believe that is what some people want. They figure all the hype will kill it same as happened before. People argued over changes done to the rifles and the Matches. People come on these sights for information not to read about controversy and as I see it is same person . I eally don't know why I bothered to answer before but as usual fell into another trap. I thought about having another match before Sept. Nationals but I see that isn't good idea.

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby ENCORE50A » Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:59 pm

45cal wrote:So I think this about what is going to happen . The Matches will be canceled and I truly believe that is what some people want. They figure all the hype will kill it same as happened before. People argued over changes done to the rifles and the Matches. People come on these sights for information not to read about controversy and as I see it is same person . I eally don't know why I bothered to answer before but as usual fell into another trap. I thought about having another match before Sept. Nationals but I see that isn't good idea.


Bob, are you referring to me as the "same person"? If that's the case, would you mind if I shared some of the notes I've taken during our many phone conversations? Yes, I do take very good notes.
Just before you banned me from the Inline Nation, would you mind repeating the last thing you wrote, the part where you stated publically that you didn't give a damn if it folded up?

The only reason the matches will be canceled is because of people wanting to place the blame on others. Yes people want to read about these shoots and competitions, yet discussing issues that continue to remain are being done so civil. Nobody's going into a rage. Quite honestly, you can bet Hal is watching over these posts. I feel 100% confident that if Hal feels they're going to far, first he'll say something like, 'Cool down boys', then if necessary because it gets out of hand, he'll lock the thread. This/these conversations are taking place in the correct part of the forum too.

I'll say this, you've worked your ask off to create and maintain the matches. I know because of the many phone conversations we've had. It hasn't been without hiccups, but the matches are still taking place. Do you really want to just give up on all the work you've put into them so far? How about getting an unbiased group, a new group together and let them create new rules, with clear definitions. Doing so will reward you for all the hard work you've put into this.
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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby 45cal » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:14 pm

I just stated that , you want to blame me fine , I'll take it I'm just telling you what will happen and this is how I feel. I'll just go back to shooting my Gibbs, and I'll stand by what you want to quote. YOU have no clue what I had to stand against to start these matches so if it folds so be , as you quoted me saying only shooters will tell, but all your damn ranting on here won't change Match format all you are doing is pissing people off. If shooters have dissent amongst them selves then match has no purpose anyway and nothing will get done ever. Ball is in your park.
Hop to see you at Steves Inline Offhand Match.

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby jwhill » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:21 pm

First off let me start by saying congratulations to all who participated and you all shot very well, secondly I'd like to say that everyone handled themselves like pros. I'd like to also clear the air about a few things that have been said here and other places about the nmlra. Some of the matches we shoot in June are NRA matches, they do not recognize Blackhorn 209 as a black powder substitute so you cannot use it in those matches. Our rules have said for the last 25 - 30 years that if the BATF does not recognize a powder as a black powder substitute then you cannot use it on our range. No one's making up new rules about this. I'm also more than a little confused how about some people who think they're experts trying to tell us whats shot all around the country, like the comment made no ranges allow prone shooting, that person obviously doesn't shoot. Prone shooting has been done not only at friendship for more than 80 years but also at Camp Perry, Camp Atterbury, all military installations in the country and outside the country, Raton New Mexico, Ben Avery Arizona and just let me know I'll get you about a thousand more. As far as cross sticks go and not from a bench because Hunters don't use cross sticks that's the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. How many benches have you ever seen in the woods. George Perry, you have done nothing constructive for the nmlra or the inline shoot in general, all you do is complain and talk about you don't like this or that. I don't know why you think you of all people are an expert but here's what I would say to you, I will personally pay you your membership fee back. I'm only interested in holding matches having fun and being safe shooting, you're only interested in stirring the pot and causing trouble. As far as the no practice Target we've been doing that there for over two decades. You obviously live in your own little world and shoot at your own range and make your own rules and then think they should apply to everyone, that's not how it works.


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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby 1874sharpsshooter » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:33 pm

jwhill wrote: if the BATF does not recognize a powder as a black powder substitute then you cannot use it on our range.

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How is Blackhorn not a blackpowder substitute? or are you saying only the NRA doesn't recognize it as such ?

fact sheet:
2) Is Blackhorn 209 is a smokeless powder? NO, The regulatory authorities who determine the classification of energetic materials, The Explosives Bureau, U.S D.O.T. and Canadian Energy Research Laboratories have determined the classification of Blackhorn 209 to be US/UN PROPELLANT, SOLID, UN0499. Smokeless Powders are classified as POWDER, SMOKELESS, UN0161.

• Blackhorn 209 shares the same legal classification (Propellant, solid, UN0499) as all black powder substitutes, Triple 7, Pyrodex, American Pioneer, Shockey’s Gold and GOEX Pinnacle.

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby jwhill » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:43 pm

Only the NRA and assra currently do not recognize it.

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby 1874sharpsshooter » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:47 pm

as an outsider with no dog in this fight I guess if I ever decide to go to Friendship, which I have often contemplated, the decision is easy . I would take at least two guns. :mrgreen: one of my original 1:20 Discs or one of my 451 cal 1:20 Whites. They are definitely production guns. Then one of my Bestill customs for where allowed. I would take Blackhorn 209, 777 and maybe even some real black powder and a powder measurer :D

3 things would probably happen.

1. I would meet nice people and have fun
2. I would learn a lot
3. I would finish in last place. :mrgreen:

then I would come home resolving that next time I would do better...... :lol:

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Re: June NMLRA nationals 2017

Postby halloflin » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:47 pm

I'll weigh in...First off I do not know a lot about these matches and the rules so I am not qualified to pass judgement or make educated comments. So far this thread has been OK, minimal personal attacks, and as has been stated "it is in the right forum" and has allowed folks to air differences of opinions and possibly clear some things up. Maybe even clear the air and get some things out in the open and result in no hard feelings.

Having said all that...It bothers me that the muzzle loading community is bickering and at odds with one another. I have shared emails with several of the guys that work and put on these matches. Especially the one held in the town I grew up in, Oak Ridge, TN, and from what I can tell Rick does a great job with these matches. The future of muzzle loading has remained somewhat strong for the past few years and I hope these kind of disagreements don't weaken our sport. From where I sit the matches strengthen it!
“When a hunter is in a treestand with moral values and with the proper hunting ethics and richer for the experience, that hunter is 20 feet closer to God.” Fred Bear


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