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wildcat2

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Been looking on you tube of paper patching bullets and whant to get some bullets and mould for my 450 GM.barrel on my henry build. I watched a guy from Idaho that has quite a bit of knowledge of shooting. And he has a 45cal hot rod he calls it and I believe he said his bore was 451,but he is shooting a 11mm ,375gr that is 446. Then he paper patch two wraps and then runs the threw a 446 sizing die. Seems to me that that bullet would fall out of the barrel if you tipped it down or pump it. I think I read once where 45 cal said about using a 442 size bullet. This guy from Idaho ran his patch threw a sizer dry also. I did get a lee press and had them make me up a 450 die for my grease groove bullets. Also what are the advantages if any of a paper patch? Help me out guys, Thanks.
 
That is Idahoron on this board, send him a private message and he will probably fill you in on his system and components.
Good luck on your quest, its usually quite fun.
 
Just depends on your rifle if it likes PP or GG.. If your cleaning/wiping between shots either will do fine, if your not - GG probably will do better.
If you're bore is 0.450" - then you are correct for traditional patching 0.442" bullets, double wrapped to 0.450".
I patch and shoot mine dry with no issues.
Buffalo Arms sells PP in 0.442" in both 500 & 530gr. (also a few other diameters and weights) - a good place to start.
 
Thanks ,I'll will pm Idaho ron ,sure seems the math does not add up to be a snug bullet fit. I guess the paper your referring is the 9lb onion ,2 thou.thick? Thanks.
 
wildcat2 said:
Thanks ,I'll will pm Idaho ron ,sure seems the math does not add up to be a snug bullet fit. I guess the paper your referring is the 9lb onion ,2 thou.thick? Thanks.

There is a literal TON of information on this if you do some looking. I had custom molds built for 45, 50, and 54 Cal, i had the molds made so that the bullets drop from the molds at a correct Paper Patching diameter. With my bullets all that is needed is to wrap your paper and load, a Sizing die is not required with ANY of my bullets, but can be used to slightly iron the paper out if you choose to do so, or you want a looser fitting bullet (which i did NOT want) I personally quit using my sizers, i wrap 2 wraps of 9# onion skin paper and load, this way the bullets fit good and snug and wont back off the charge. My papers NEVER stick, They ‘shuck’ Away at the muzzle and will be found within 10 feet or so of your bench

Not all onion skin paper is created equal, some thicker/thinner than others. Theres not a TON of difference, but 1-2 thou is very noticeable if you are striving for a perfect fit and dont want to use a sizer die.
 
OK thanks for that advice. I see Buffalo arms only has one paper. Don't know what two wraps of theirs will size out at.
 
wildcat2 said:
OK thanks for that advice. I see Buffalo arms only has one paper. Don't know what two wraps of theirs will size out at.
If they are still selling the 'blue' paper we put them on to years ago - it actually measures 0.007" with 2 wraps. Was suppose to be the last of the 100% cotton, but there has been more located since.
Go down to a local paper store, Office Supply, etc.. and take your micrometer.. Start measuring their #9 bond paper, parchment paper, etc... Don't worry about the % of cotton..
I also sent you a PM about paper.
 
52Bore said:
wildcat2 said:
OK thanks for that advice. I see Buffalo arms only has one paper. Don't know what two wraps of theirs will size out at.
If they are still selling the 'blue' paper we put them on to years ago - it actually measures 0.007" with 2 wraps. Was suppose to be the last of the 100% cotton, but there has been more located since.
Go down to a local paper store, Office Supply, etc.. and take your micrometer.. Start measuring their #9 bond paper, parchment paper, etc... Don't worry about the % of cotton..
I also sent you a PM about paper.

I don’t think it is the blue stuff you speak of anymore? I’m pretty sure what they have now is the same stuff that the paper mill store online sells and it’s a wood fiber nowadays if I remember right and not the cotton? I think it says on there website? You have me curious about the blue stuff? I live about 40 minutes from Buffalo Arms and am a very regular in that place, i will look at the stuff they have now, and ask Dave Gullo (the owner) about the blue stuff you speak of
 
I did a BUNCH of testing different paper this last spring/summer, I found the new wood fiber stuff you get nowadays from the Paper Mill store online to be REALLY slick stuff, it will ‘shuck’ at the Muzzle even if sized like Idahoron does the Lee S&W 500 bullet, But on the contrary the old vintage cockle texture onion skin stuff i have will stick to the bullet if sized that way, I don’t have that problem at all just wrapping and loading, but again i had custom molds built to drop the bullets undersize so you wrap up to, and slightly over bore, instead of sizing the actual lead bullet itself with the paper on it. Ron has proven this method to work great for him and many others, i personally didn’t like it and chose a different route. This is not to say that my way is better, or his way is better, its simply 2 different ways of doing it.

If you choose to go Idahoron’s route I HIGHLY HIGHLY advise you to follow his tutorial on Castboolits to the T and don’t try to change ANYTHING! From the lead hardness, to the Pyrodex P powder, follow EXACTLY what he does and it will work for you as well, if you choose to deviate from his method even the tiniest bit there is a very high probability that failure awaits you, i know this from hands on experience!
 
Wow so much to learn and try. I did get a cabin tree lead tester today from buffalo arms. Rick I trye'd to pm you back but it keeps coming back to me. Thanks for your help and time guys.
 
wildcat2 said:
Wow so much to learn and try. I did get a cabin tree lead tester today from buffalo arms. Rick I trye'd to pm you back but it keeps coming back to me. Thanks for your help and time guys.

I have a Cabin Tree as well, they are very nice testers! Cabin Tree was sold to another outfit, i cant remember the exact details? Since that part of the Co was sold The chart has changed to a cheap simple version, and I believe the Chart that comes with the tester now days is inaccurate. I think you can download the original chart from Cabin Tree which is much more detailed, and you will see there are some discrepancies between them. Idahoron emailed me a copy of an original, i ended up photo copying and laminating 1 of the Originals that Ron sent me, that is the one i go by and keep hanging at my loading bench
 
I started a thread on the Cabin tree testers quite awhile back on CB, here are some points of interest in that thread


I bought a new Cabin Tree Hardness tester from Buffalo arms, this one is made by ST Machining, stil in Dayton Wa, but has changed ownership. Anyone else notice the Discrepancies in the reference chart? I believe the new chart that comes with these units from ST Machining is WRONG? I did several tests on known pure plumbers lead and got a dial reading of .025-.026, the reference chart that came with my Cabin Tree doesn't even go that low, I understand that one should know that is pure lead, just a fact that the Old Reference sheet DOES go that low. Also according to my chart my bullets are 8BHN (this is a big deal to me!) According to the old original chart my bullets would be 9-9.5BHN, Again I believe the old original chart to be correct and the New one that comes with testers now I believe is incorrect? Idahoron and i are gonna run some side by side tests in a couple of months of same lead and see if our dials read the same? Anyone agree, disagree here?


I emailed Cabin tree and this was the response I received

I no longer make the testers. I sold the company 3 years ago. The
current company is at cowboybullets.com

If the old chart works for you, I would suggest using it. It is still
on my old web site, castingstuff.com and you can print as many
copies as you need.
Jim
 
wildcat2 said:
Been looking on you tube of paper patching bullets and whant to get some bullets and mould for my 450 GM.barrel on my henry build. I watched a guy from Idaho that has quite a bit of knowledge of shooting. And he has a 45cal hot rod he calls it and I believe he said his bore was 451,but he is shooting a 11mm ,375gr that is 446. Then he paper patch two wraps and then runs the threw a 446 sizing die. Seems to me that that bullet would fall out of the barrel if you tipped it down or pump it. I think I read once where 45 cal said about using a 442 size bullet. This guy from Idaho ran his patch threw a sizer dry also. I did get a lee press and had them make me up a 450 die for my grease groove bullets. Also what are the advantages if any of a paper patch? Help me out guys, Thanks.


I got your PM i replied to it. Did you get that?
 
wildcat2 said:
Been looking on you tube of paper patching bullets and whant to get some bullets and mould for my 450 GM.barrel on my henry build. I watched a guy from Idaho that has quite a bit of knowledge of shooting. And he has a 45cal hot rod he calls it and I believe he said his bore was 451,but he is shooting a 11mm ,375gr that is 446. Then he paper patch two wraps and then runs the threw a 446 sizing die. Seems to me that that bullet would fall out of the barrel if you tipped it down or pump it. I think I read once where 45 cal said about using a 442 size bullet. This guy from Idaho ran his patch threw a sizer dry also. I did get a lee press and had them make me up a 450 die for my grease groove bullets. Also what are the advantages if any of a paper patch? Help me out guys, Thanks.


My 11mm bullets are poured with lead that is about 8.5 BHN hard. This alloy weighs right at 408 grains with this bullet.

2UMJRHF.jpg


You asked about sizing to .446
The .446 sizing was actually a guess on my part about 10 years ago. I originally bought it to size bullets to for my .458 renegade. That didn't work well so that was put on hold. I started to shoot the .451 Hawken and wanted to paper patch it. I tried several pistol bullets because the twist was 1-30 I was thinking I needed short bullets. Again the pistol bullets all failed to give consistent accuracy. Yes I got some good groups but it was not consistent. Some of those problems back then could have been the lead hardness I didn't test hardness because I just didn't find a bullet I liked. I have found that not all bullets like to be pushed out soft. Not all barrels like soft or hard bullets. Back then I just felt that the pistol bullets were going the wrong way for me.
I decided that I was going to try a new bullet. So I looked over the Midway catalog and found the RCBS 11mm. I also found a Pedersoldi mould that was also at .446 but it was a minie style. I got them both and tried them.
The bullets would not go down the barrel as wrapped. They were measuring about .452 or so.So all I had to work with was a .446 sizer. I decided I would give it a try to see what it would do.
The Minie was a failure but to be honest I think it was due to the base wad I used not the bullet, and maybe even hardness to some degree.

I had been shooting my Lee 500 S&W for a while at this point. I liked 80 grains of pyrodex P with the wool over powder wad. So I poured up some of the 11mm bullets and shot them. That was the turning point. My first group was good and I decided to play with hardness. I bumped the hardness from soft to about 7 BHN. The groups improved so I decided to bump it again. This bullet shot sub 2" groups regularly and if I was having a good day I was at 1" or less at 100 yards.

The bullets wrapped and sized to .446 are not a tight fit. After sizing they do tend to spring back a bit but in all honesty they can be pushed down with the weight of a solid brass range rod. I have used carried the Hot Rod for a half a dozen years now hunting. I hunt open sage for Antelope and deer

2WB2Yna.jpg


ArfKB5I.jpg


Bu I have also used it as a Mountain Rifle carrying it in brush and trees.

9FktUTy.jpg


yx9aTu0.jpg


I have never had the bullet fall out. I am very sure that if I were to put it in a ATV gun boot and drive around on rough roads I am sure I would find that the bullet would not stay. If a guy put the muzzle down in a truck and drove around that might make it slip out. But I don't use gun boots on ATV's. When I carry my rifle on my ATV it looks like this. I have my back pack on the front rack and I have the gun in a sleeve.

6ZjO4hV.jpg


I have to carry my rifle like everyone else does. Sometimes the gun is muzzle down, but most of the time I carry it level, or on the sling muzzle up. I do check the bullet once and a while to make sure it is still where it is supposed to be. I have never found it to be off the powder, not once in a half dozen years.
No way it can come out by tipping it up or pumping it. If you were to drop it a couple times muzzle down on a log or rock it would probably move. Normal carry and use is not an issue.

I do size dry. If you use a lube it will degrade the paper and make it less tough. On loose fitting bullets it might not be as big of an issue I don't know. But the lube will degrade the paper. How much it degrades the paper is unknown. It depends on time and the tightness of the bullet in the barrel.

You ask what are the advantages of paper patch?
#1 is consistency. The paper protects the bullet from the barrel. And it protects the barrel from the lead. Lead build up is a slow process. If a guy shoots a lot there is a tiny amount of lead deposited with every shot. Even with the best lubes in the world a small amount is left behind. Maybe it takes forever for the accuracy to decline, maybe it takes a few shots due to a lube problem. The fact is with naked bullets lead and lube fouling is an ever changing dynamic in the barrel. If you have something that is changing potentially with every shot how do you account for that?
Guys like me that have shot a lot of naked factory bullets know that the bullets we used to shoot were okay at best. Quality control is/was non existent even today.
Guys measured accuracy with pie plates and 5 gallon buckets. If they could hit those they were good to go hunting. Distances were kept under 100 yards at the range but often the hunter shot at game much farther out due to not having range finders and or guessing wrong yardage. Some guys got lucky others didn't
A paper patched bullet is the same every time. If the guy that is making the bullets matches lead, weighs the bullets and culls the imperfect ones he is off to a good start with accuracy. If those bullets are wrapped and an over powder wad is used to protect the base then that bullet has the best chance of being accurate.

I am not saying that a GG bullet can't be accurate. I am just saying that if a guy goes that route there are some things to remember #1 being lead control in the barrel. #2 just because you have lube and your bullets shoot well it doesn't mean that the lube is correctly working. #3 lubed bullets will come off the powder charge too. When the naked bullet is pushed down the barrel the tight bullet will go down hard, but. There are grooves being cut into the bullet by the rifling's. Once those grooves are cut they are cut. The GG bullets are just as inclined to move as a slip fit paper patch is. A shooter/hunter must remember to check it once and a while. Not only is it for safety but to insure that your shot will go where it is supposed to.

Next Month will be my 10th year paper patching the lee 500 S&W bullet. It started because Hornady quit making the 410 grain 50 cal. I bought about 30 boxes to last a lifetime. I looked at that stack of boxes and thought that is all I can shoot from here on out. Well with a son about to start hunting with a black powder rifle I knew I had to make changes. I tried a hand full of GG bullets and then found the Lee 500 S&W. I knew it would never work naked as a muzzleloader bullet. But I did read about a rifle called the Whitworth. I read about paper patching and in November 2007 I decided to start my testing. No one was paper patching this bullet. For the most part no one I knew of was paper patching a hunting load for a muzzleloader. I was on my own. It was 2 years later after extensive testing with lead and load development that I decided to take the lee 500 S&W bullet on a hunt.

daB0nu9.jpg


The next year I got this buck,

hlykhPx.jpg


Soon other guys, and friends were shooting the Lee 500 S&W bullet and killing game.
Like I said before the 11mm has been my go to rifle for the last half dozen years. I have killed several deer and antelope with it this buck was the first one I killed with the 11mm bullet.

yLbFZiJ.jpg



It may seem like the numbers don't make sense but I can assure you that it works well if a guy does the work it takes to make it shoot.
Lastly this is a video I made to see how many shots I could accurately shoot without cleaning with the Hawken and 11mm bullet.

https://youtu.be/su-1Ql-Nhtk
 
wildcat2 said:
Wow so much to learn and try. I did get a cabin tree lead tester today from buffalo arms. Rick I trye'd to pm you back but it keeps coming back to me. Thanks for your help and time guys.


If you would like to try the RCBS 11MM bullet and the Lee S&W 500 i have both of those molds and will make you great deal on them.
 
Thanks but I don't think I am going to try paper patch only in smooth sided bullets. I just looked at my cabin tree tester and it has the new chart in it .I hope you and ron get your testing done ,for this kind of discrepancy in numbers is totally unexceptable to me. Thank both you men on your input on this . I hope we have a mild winter here in NW pa.so I can get my hennry shooting decent before Oakridge shoot in the spring. Remember I am a rookie.
 
Here is to clarify my personal problems with the Lee S&W 500 bullet, I don’t have a problem with the RCBS 11MM bullet as it drops from the mold at a much closer diameter to a true Paper Patch bullet, stil not great in my opinion, but not bad. The Lee S&W 500 bullet on the other hand is WAY out, That bullet drops from my mold at 501.5-502.5, Then you go 2 wraps of 9# onion skin paper, that ads between 6-8 Thousands to the overall diameter of the bullet depending on the paper you use, As I have said MANY times not all onion skin papers are created equal. Now take that bullet that is 501.5-502.5 from the mold and wrap your 2 wraps of paper, that jumps the overall diameter of that bullet up to 508.5-510.5, Now push that wrapped bullet through a .501 Sizer die, or like some of us a .498-499 Sizing die, Simply put, SOMETHING HAS to give here. If It’s not the paper, it has to be the lead right? The paper has no choice but to ‘Bite’ in to the lead, which causes the stuck paper issues we see with this combination. I have shot this Combo quite a bit and i will say that it shoots REALLY good, it doesn’t make sense to me how it does With MANY of the papers riding the bullet ALL the way to the target, and in many cases through the target. But the fact is it does shoot good! I just felt there was a better way, and that was to have that bullet designed differently

I absolutely loved the design of the Lee S&W 500 bullet, So much so that i sent 2 bullets to Tom at Accurate molds and had him copy that bullet VERY closely, With the exception of a few changes, I done away with the Gas check (a paper patch bullet does not need a gas check) And i had the bullet diameter reduced to .493-.494, When i ad 2 wraps of 9# Onion skin paper to this bullet it brings my overall diameter up to .499-.502, Again depending on the paper used. No need to use a Sizer die with ANY of the bullets i have had made, just wrap and load them, they fit good and Snug.

I will also ad that i do not have nowhere NEAR the time in the field hunting with a Muzzleloader that Idahoron has, I have hunted EXACTLY 1 day with a Muzzleloader, about 2 hours to be more precise. I killed my deer, And i did so with the bullet i had made above.
 
One last thing on onion skin paper, I have 2 different types, i have some of the old vintage cockle texture stuff that measures .002, And Forum member Harleysboss sent me several sheets of the new stuff you get from the Paper mill store online, it is thinner stuff and measures 1-1.5 thou, As ive said before in my testing i found this new stuff to be REALLY slick! Even after sizing the Lee S&W 500 bullet as described above i could stil grip the nose of the bullet with one hand and the paper jacket with the other and twist the bullet inside the jacket, in my opinion this is a good and a bad thing, the good being it will ‘shuck away’ from the bullet upon exiting the barrel and will not stick, The bad is i actually had a bullet slide out of the paper jacket and i found it in the bottom of my Gun case! This happened on a 2-3 mile drive to the local sandpit, I always load my rifle at home before i leave, and as always before the first shot i check it with my Range Rod to make sure it hasn’t moved? I shoot so many different rifles that i don’t have a mark on my Rod, when i checked this load i got to the bottom and gave the rod a good push, it didn’t budge, i capped the rifle and took the shot, it sounded odd? And there was a different puff of smoke and no felt recoil? I immediately grabbed my gun case and checked, Sure enough the naked bullet was sitting in the bottom of the case, it had slid out of the paper jacket!

If you have a loose fitting bullet and are using this paper from the paper mill store i would recommend rolling your bullets between 2 mill files, this will leave a knurled texture to the bullet and should prevent the bullet from sliding out of the paper jacket. I have never had this happen with the old vintage cockle texture paper.
 
Wow I don't like the possibility of the bullet slide. Can I ask what is your bore aND groove diameter, is the sw 500 bullet smooth or does it have grease grooves? Like I say my hennry build is a 450/458. And getting it back in my hands ready to shoot will be 3to 4 weeks ,but I whant several bullets ready to try ,for I would like to take it hunting for blackbear. And whitetail buck season,if I don't shoot one here in the next three weeks of archery,.
 
wildcat2 said:
Wow I don't like the possibility of the bullet slide. Can I ask what is your bore aND groove diameter, is the sw 500 bullet smooth or does it have grease grooves? Like I say my hennry build is a 450/458. And getting it back in my hands ready to shoot will be 3to 4 weeks ,but I whant several bullets ready to try ,for I would like to take it hunting for blackbear. And whitetail buck season,if I don't shoot one here in the next three weeks of archery,.


The bullet that slid out of the paper jacket was the Lee S&W 500 Bullet that i had sized down to .493 before wrapping the 2 wraps of paper (i made my own .492-.493 sizer die) And at that time i was pushing my wrapped bullets through my .500 Sizer die, With my custom bullets a sizer die is not needed, i was only doing it to lightly ‘iron’ the paper, There is virtually zero resistance when pushing any of my wrapped bullets through a sizer, I have since stopped using my sizers, there’s just no need for them with my bullets, Had i of just wrapped and loaded i am confident that wouldn’t have happened. And as ive said above, i have never had anything like that happen with the old cockle texture onion skin paper, that old cockle texture stuff REALLY grabs the bullet, where this new stuff that comes from the Paper mill store is GREASY SLICK!

When i loaded my rifle that morning it felt great, i would say about 1 pound or so of resistance all the way to the powder but that 450 Grain bullet stil slid right out of the paper jacket and was found in the bottom of my gun case! I am confident it was a combination of me just sizing that bullet down from .502 to .493 (by doing this it REALLY slickens and smooths the bullet up!) and this new Paper from the Paper mill store being GREASY SLICK stuff! My rifle was in my gun case with muzzle pointed down, The little short road going in to the sandpit where i shoot is ROUGH and bumpy, i drive a Toyota 4Wheel Drive that rides about like 4 tires mounted on a 2X8 board! Here i am trying to get ready for hunting season, You talk about playing a mental game! Between that and the cold clean bore shot problem i was having at the time, i had pretty much given up on the thought of hunting with a Muzzleloader, at least with Paper Patched bullets. I ended up having a Grease Groove bullet mold Made from a Bullshop 460 Grain bullet that loads REALLY tight all the way to the powder, You are NOT gonna budge that one off the powder! But i have since learned how to REALLY tighten up my Cold clean bore Paper Patched bullet for Hunting, And i trust 100% in them staying put on the powder! I fully trust the old cockle texture onion skin paper to firmly hold the bullet, where as I don’t have much faith in the new stuff you get from the paper mill store today. And no finish sizing with my bullets, just wrap and load, I would say this creates roughly a 4 to 5 pound push all the way to the powder, My solid brass Range Rod is REALLY HEAVY and it will not push the bullet alone, you stil have to push with a few pounds of pressure all the way to the powder. To me it feels optimum, and i fully trust them to stay put!
 

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