Chrono'd my Renegade

[Confederate rifleman]

Results were... odd?
I used my usual charge of 70 grains of 3f Swiss, and 200, 230 and 250 grain XTPs in Harvester crush rib sabots.
The 200s went 1523 fps with a high/ low of 14 fps.
The 230s went 1448 fps with a high/ low of 14 fps
The 250s went 1407 fps with a high/low of 7 fps.
Definitely NOT what I was expecting! In my 24 inch Firehawk gets 1630 fps with the 230s and 1575 fps with the 250s. Same charge and sabot.
My 28 inch Hawken gets 1610 fps with the 250s. Same charge and sabot.
Now this Renegade is a miserably hard ram. Almost too hard for a hunting rifle.
I expected to lose a little with her being a flintlock, but 182 fps for the 230s, and 150 fps for the 250s, from a 2 inch shorter barrel, and 182 fps from a 2 inch longer barrel with the 250s is a bit of a headscratcher.
My other Renegade is an easier ram and she'll be chrono'd next.
The slow barrel shows a 3/4 " difference in point of impact between the 200 and 250 grain. The other Renegade gives a 4&5/8ths" difference between these loads.
Hummmm...

 

[ElDiablo]

Interesting. That’s about what I’d expect with a light charge like that (based on published data.)

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Guess my Firehawk ad Hawken got strong medicine!
My old Black Diamond XR, 26 inch, got 1550 fps with this load.

 

[anonymouscowherd]

Different barrels, even in same length will give different velocities

Be interesting to follow the methods used by ballistics-by-the-inch and start with a long barrel and chrono and cut down inch by inch

 

[sonny from st. louis]

I do a lot of chronograph testing. Some very surprising velocities have happened. That is what makes testing so interesting.
Have a good day.

 

[brad502a]

no two barrels are alike, each is an individual.

 

[Ka'imiloa]

Results were... odd?
I used my usual charge of 70 grains of 3f Swiss, and 200, 230 and 250 grain XTPs in Harvester crush rib sabots.
The 200s went 1523 fps with a high/ low of 14 fps.
The 230s went 1448 fps with a high/ low of 14 fps
The 250s went 1407 fps with a high/low of 7 fps.
Definitely NOT what I was expecting! In my 24 inch Firehawk gets 1630 fps with the 230s and 1575 fps with the 250s. Same charge and sabot.
My 28 inch Hawken gets 1610 fps with the 250s. Same charge and sabot.
Now this Renegade is a miserably hard ram. Almost too hard for a hunting rifle.
I expected to lose a little with her being a flintlock, but 182 fps for the 230s, and 150 fps for the 250s, from a 2 inch shorter barrel, and 182 fps from a 2 inch longer barrel with the 250s is a bit of a headscratcher.
My other Renegade is an easier ram and she'll be chrono'd next.
The slow barrel shows a 3/4 " difference in point of impact between the 200 and 250 grain. The other Renegade gives a 4&5/8ths" difference between these loads.
Hummmm...

I know you must be shooting 50 cal. if shooting a T/C Renegade, since Harvester does not make a .54 crush rib sabot. Yes, loading effort can vary, and despite that fact that my wife's .54 Renegade and mine are from the same era and have had the same 3/0 steel wool "lapping" followed by actual lapping with fine valve-grinding compound, hers is significantly harder to load than mine -- using .45 XTP bullets or Harvester 330 gr. .45 hardcast bullets in the dark red (later version) Harvester .54 sabots. But both need a strong ramrod and loading pressure, in a clean or or moderately-cleaned barrel.
3 F Swiss is easy to ignite and has plenty of punch. But we need to know whether it was 70 gr. by wt. or by vol. and, respectfully, I always advocating for that information at any ML forum. Then the questions remain: what is the caliber and barrel length of each of the rifles you write of above, and the specific ignition method (for example, a musket cap has the same brisance (igniting force) as 209 primer, according to what I have read, well more than the best of percussion caps.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Hi!
.50 calibers all.
70 by weight, the percussion rifles lit with #11 Remington caps. 4f prime in the flintlock. No more than half pan.
I did mention the Firehawk is 24 inches and the Hawken 28, and in the comparison, the reference to 2 inches shorter/ longer barrels. The Renegade splits the difference at 26 inches. The land width is much narrower in the Firehawk and less, but still narrower in the Hawken compared to either of my Renegades. All T/C' barrels. The Hawken and Renegade are 1-48 twist. The Firehawk is 1-38 and stainless.
Swabbed between each shot with rubbing alcohol. Moist patch down and back, flip and repeat, then a dry patch and reload.
Tresco nipples and RMC vent liner as appropriate.

 

[BCS]

Nipple holes can vary from .028 to .035, [or more] wonder how that affects velocity?

 

[sonny from st. louis]

I am sure the hole diameter will affect the average velocity. This is were testing get tricky. It has to do with standard deviation. If you start comparing the velocities that has over lapping standard deviations, it is hard to determine which velocity is greater. The first thing I work on is getting the standard deviation as small as possible and not over lap. I can say with surety this velocity is greater than the other. Otherwise it is an opinion that one velocity greater than the other. It seams like all the little things start to add up and cause some interesting changes at times. I guess this is why I spend my time at the range and doing research.

 

[Ka'imiloa]

Hi!
.50 calibers all.
70 by weight, the percussion rifles lit with #11 Remington caps. 4f prime in the flintlock. No more than half pan.
I did mention the Firehawk is 24 inches and the Hawken 28, and in the comparison, the reference to 2 inches shorter/ longer barrels. The Renegade splits the difference at 26 inches. The land width is much narrower in the Firehawk and less, but still narrower in the Hawken compared to either of my Renegades. All T/C' barrels. The Hawken and Renegade are 1-48 twist. The Firehawk is 1-38 and stainless.
Swabbed between each shot with rubbing alcohol. Moist patch down and back, flip and repeat, then a dry patch and reload.
Tresco nipples and RMC vent liner as appropriate.

Fine reply, much appreciated, and things are much clearer now. For whatever it's worth, I was taught by a well known senior ML shooter 63 years ago to always hold the ML rifle up vertically after pouring the powder and give it three sharp whacks at the breech with the heel of my hand.This settles the powder down under the nipple and assures best possible ignition. I think this habit all the more important as residue accumulates with shooting at the range and wiping between shots just as you describe.

The other thing of note is that we had nothing to use as powder in Hawaii except for Pyrodex, and despite the above and all other efforts, I would get hang-fires fairly often. So I conducted an experiment with the available nipples at that time. The result: Spitfire nipples were the best, and their form mimics some of the best old time nipples in that the base has a cupped recess that allows the firing capability of the cap to "spray" more widely into the powder, thus improving ignition per the manufacturer, and confirmed by my trials. The hang-fires completely went away and of course accuracy got significantly better.

Spitfires are made in all sorts of oversized and undersized versions, contrary to many others, and of course the stouter any load is, and the heavier the bullet, the more you want those threads to have a good grip in the snail or drum. So for perhaps the past 25 years, all my MLs, modern or antique, have Spitfire nipples.

Quick thoughts: The Firehawk probably has considerably more shallow grooves than the other two. True? And a borescope might show a better bore in the Renegade, perhaps? Firehawk twist rate is 38 is interesting. I did a great deal of research maybe 15 years ago on the best twist rate for a bore-diameter bullet in a 54 cal. custom barrel for elk hunting in Colorado where the .45 Pedersoli Mortimer is (ridiculously) illegal. The Mortimer, with this Bobby Hoyt .54 barrel shot up to 650 gr. bullets beautifully, tho the recoil was too brutal with the 650 one -- since the .54 barrel knocked down the rifle's overall weight to 9 1/2 pounds.

Quick question: have you picked up your fired sabots from the rifles, to see if there is any difference in appearance, such as more flare of the petals from muzzle pressure, or even loss of petals? This might give a clue to the pressure each rifle is building at ignition.

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

 

[Confederate rifleman]

I'll have to count lands when I get home. Recovered sabots, Harvester crush ribs, are in excellent condition. No scuffing, all petals intact and lovely base squaring.
Tresco nipples make my Hawken a misfiring fiend when new. I shoot them in my Firehawk until accuracy begins to fall off. Usually about 400 shots. Then, they're perfect for the Hawken.
I agree on the pour and tap.
The Firehawk, with its 1-38 twist, will handle. 45 calibers in sabots up to 300 grains. The .45 300 XTP need a 1-39 according to Greenhill. It is superbly accurate too. Inch or less 3 shot 100 yard groups, aperture sighted, are not at all uncommon with .45 230, 250 and 300 grain.
The Hawken/ Renegade with their 1-48 will handle up to the length of the 250 grain .45 XTP. That needs a 1-49&1/2.
What the Firehawk does with the Lyman Plains bullet (lubed with SPG) 400 grains, a .54 lubed wad and 70 grains of 3f Swiss is amazing. So is the recoil... These soda cans move out at 1350 fps. High/ low with them is usually 10-12 fps. 3 shot 100 yard groups are usually 1&1/4 to 1&5/8ths Its a dead ringer for the old .50-70. But from a barely 7 pound rifle.
Yup. She INTRODUCES herself...

 

[Confederate rifleman]

Okiedokie, here's the details.
All barrels are T/C factory. By that, I mean so marked and are not aftermarket.
All are 8 groove. The Firehawk is 1-38, the Renegade/Hawken are 1-48.
I tried to take pics to show the difference in land/ groove with between the three.
In order: Firehawk, Hawken and Renegade.