NMLRA??

[SuperKirby]

I know there's a couple guys on here that seem pretty close to the NMLRA so I'm guessing there's people here that know.

I hear people talk about Friendship, see the results posted from matches, and hear the talk about the NMLRA. I've looked at joining but it seems as though the organization is fading? Maybe I'm wrong but my perception is that the organization started at a time when traditional was the only option. It has since grown at a rate slower than the muzzleloader market has progressed.
I guess what I'm wondering is why isn't the organization more progressive? Why don't they accept all forms of muzzleloaders? It seems like with an estimated 4 million muzzleloader shooters there's the potential to make the NMLRA grow.

Understand I'm not trying to ruffle feathers and I'm not trying to be critical. I'm honestly curious. I love muzzleloaders and would love to see them grow as a whole. Heck look at archery and the way the ATA represents them. I know not everyone agrees with crossbows or even compound bows but the ATA accepts all and continues to grow at a rapid rate. If the NMLRA accepted traditional, modern inlines, and smokeless it could start growing too. I think the latter two areas is where the bulk of the market is growing and will continue to grow.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

I think they are trying to be more open. I agree with Inlines but not so sure about smokless. The smokless crowd is a very small nich . Although they/we are a very dedicated batch of shooters.

I completley understand the loyalty of the traditional shooters. Some of the traditional shooters would rather let the organization die rather than to change. That makes no sense to me ! I am not partial I love all guns. I own a pile of traditional rifles now that I would have never owned because of inlines. Inline muzzleloaders got me started . Since then I have bought all kinds of traditional rifles.

This year the NMLRA is introducing 2 new classes dedicated more for custom rifles. Any custom/smokless muzzleloader will shoot Black powder or Blackpowder subs equally well. Just because a rifle is rated smokless does not mean it will only shoot smokless powder.That is a huge miss conception by some.

 

[45-70]

NMLRA isn't going to die, it could but , they do have matches now for Inlines shooting black or sub. If you came to a National Match it would be beyond your belief, especially Trap and Skeet. The Inline Matches have came a long way thanks to some on this sight, Doug , Bestill , Bob , Jason , Rick . Lots of growing pains but it is starting to come together . It even has Rifle Committee interested. The accuracy is unbelievable with some or most rifles, It has come to where 200 yds. is almost a chip shot.
There are some giving hearsay on what happens their, but no where in country is there the number of Muzzle Loading shooters gathered at one time in one place. Lot of shooters aren't competitive so they are turned off by a Rifle Match. There is a great number of shooters on this sight that would make great competitive shooters, they just don't know it.
I wish there more matches around the country. The Inline is a great rifle to compete out to 600 yds. I'm starting to rant so , people like Doug and Bestill can tell you how enormous the shoot really is. Please reconsider joining and coming to a National Match, don't have to be intimidated about knowing what to do. Let someone know when you are coming and they will help you out.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Here's what I think ...……… Most of today's muzzleloaders are hunters and many, if not most, have grown up with only a modern inline rifle. They're looking for a muzzleloader which they believe is easier to load, shoot and is accurate at longer ranges, including a low cost. What they may not understand, is some of the traditional rifles can also do the same.
I think there may be a lot of resentment by traditional shooters toward modern inline rifles, yet extremely very few of the modern inline shooters resent traditional shooters. Many modern inline shooters may have never been exposed to traditional rifle shooting. IMO the only way to change that, is for the two groups to accept one another and learn from each other. That may not prove an easy task. It REQUIRES a complete CHANGE of mind set.

As for smokeless...….. the numbers of shooters now interested in smokeless muzzleloaders is certainly growing steadily. Its easily identified by any of the numerous forums and social media sites. Many are totally against it, but so much work towards safety has been completed, its becoming a much safer practice. I may be wrong here somewhat, but I believe there are at least TWO major smokeless shoots that have been held for a couple years now. The shoots have had to be limited because of the numbers wanting to attend. It also appears that shooters are much more willing to travel longer distances to attend these smokeless shoots.

CHANGE…… one of the hardest things humans can make or do. Animals will adapt easier to changes than humans. Try this if you think change is easy.... When you get up and put your pants on, determine which leg you put into your pants first. For the next week, put the other leg in your pants first without hesitation, or go without pants that whole day. LOL

I'm all for the NMLRA recruiting new members that may only know modern inline rifles. I'm not against smokeless shooters being accepted either. Its a big change that may be necessary for the sport itself. We have way to many anti this and that, to argue and fight amongst ourselves.

There was an article posted in Muzzle Blast from the NMLRA, that the author, a long time contributor wrote. https://nmlra.org/2017/08/24/the-question-of-in-lines/

 

[GM54-120]

Kirby, consider this when talking about smokeless MZs in competition.....What regulatory body would oversee safe load data? I can only think of 1 vendor with documented and detailed loads they fully endorse/test besides Savage....Badbull and they allow ONE powder within a narrow load range. Sure we have a ton of traces on Dougs but there is no SAAMI for MLs of any type.

So who is gunna put their butt on the line approving and testing SML loads under proof house conditions? Work out that tiny detail and im all for NMLRA hosting SML shoots.

 

[ENCORE50A]

Kirby, consider this when talking about smokeless MZs in competition.....What regulatory body would oversee safe load data? I can only think of 1 vendor with documented and detailed loads they fully endorse/test besides Savage....Badbull and they allow ONE powder within a narrow load range. Sure we have a ton of traces on Dougs but there is no SAAMI for MLs of any type.

So who is gunna put their butt on the line approving and testing SML loads under proof house conditions?

I may be wrong and if so Bob or Rick can correct me. But I think right now some waver for safety on certain rifles .. may .. be required in some instances???

 

[45-70]

They aren't really policing that rule too much , but the amount or charge of powder , shooters are adhering to in the M5 Match I mean , Desperately need shooters for new bench Matches though. I agree
with GM54 on the what you would call Saami standards like reloading manuals.
People on this sight would not believe what shotguns are used on Trap and Skeet. I have seen browning over and unders turned into inlines , that line has no problem with people shooting those. It comes down to change and people don't like it , takes time and the Inline shooters can do that if they participate in competition. Would love to see someone show with new CVA , bolt or break action .

 

[45-70]

here is copy of proposed rules for new bench matches at the Nationals

 

[52Bore]

As a new NMLRA BOD and a member of the NRA BP Committee, here’s my take to the OP.
1) NMLRA membership is up 4K in the past 2 years. It’s peak was in the 80’s.
2) The NMLRA is made up of Volunteers, everyone but the 6 staff members who assist/ the many programs they offer. Longhunter program, Gunsmith seminars, Territorial program, etc. And the Muzzle Blast monthly magazine - which is about 1/2 the cost of an NMLRA membership. Where do the articles in MB come from? Members sharing their experiences- I’ve written articles in recentvyrars on in-lines, bullets, etc. that have been published.
3) I’ve been in this site for maybe 5 years - how many people across this great country on this site who ‘love ML’ have stepped up to host a match, NONE, not a single 1, that I know of. 45-70 has hosted great matches at the NMLRA range, I’ve hosted in-line matches at my home range and have helped guys in my state host an in-line match..
4) ATA, I’m not too familiar with, but like the NMLRA leadership- I’m sure they support promoting their sport. Is the ML community doing so? I think NOT- with social media today, when have you seen Knight, CVA, or any other mfg promote anything but themselves? I know they’ve been asked.
The ML community as a whole is responsible.

 

[bestill]

You need to come to the nationals and shoot and just fellowship with other shooters.
Bunch of great guys and great events

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Anyone wants to come I would be more than happy to help them shoot the event. Would also provide a gun if need be.

 

[SuperKirby]

I guess I’m not even talking specifically shooting an event. I’m speaking more to the inclusiveness as a whole- every aspect of muzzleloaders, every type of propellant. I understand smokeless isn’t popular and it’s “dangerous” but there’s also a ton of new information and technology since the Savage first rolled on the scene.
As I was thinking about how to carefully and respectfully respond, I started thinking that maybe it was a lack of education on my part. Perhaps I’m the one that’s in the dark on the NMLRA and really it’s a thriving organization going strong. Maybe so but I know I’ve never heard anything about them outside of this website.
As for shoots, I know the two builders I’m familiar with both put on a shoot once or twice a year. I know that at least one had to put a cap at 50 shooters and still has more trying to sign up. I’ve offered to host a shoot out here at the farm if people want to show up. I have a place that should get me out to at least 300 yards, just need to set up a couple benches.
I know it’s not easy. Please don’t take anything I’m saying as implying that I think that they’re just sitting around being lazy or not trying. I was merely asking why there’s not a bigger (perceives) push to try to recruit new members and grow the sport.

 

[45-70]

I agree with what you are saying. The only way to understand it is actually attend a National Shoot. I went for years after returning from Vietnam in 69 , in 2001 , I went to Spring Match and watched the long range match a fellow let me shoot his rifle at the Rams ( 500 ) hit it 5 of 7 shots and went looking for a rifle . I haven't missed a match since .
They are trying to recruit members but not just one aspect of the sport it is more of a whole.

 

[X-ring]

As a new NMLRA BOD and a member of the NRA BP Committee, here’s my take to the OP.
1) NMLRA membership is up 4K in the past 2 years. It’s peak was in the 80’s.
2) The NMLRA is made up of Volunteers, everyone but the 6 staff members who assist/ the many programs they offer. Longhunter program, Gunsmith seminars, Territorial program, etc. And the Muzzle Blast monthly magazine - which is about 1/2 the cost of an NMLRA membership. Where do the articles in MB come from? Members sharing their experiences- I’ve written articles in recentvyrars on in-lines, bullets, etc. that have been published.
3) I’ve been in this site for maybe 5 years - how many people across this great country on this site who ‘love ML’ have stepped up to host a match, NONE, not a single 1, that I know of. 45-70 has hosted great matches at the NMLRA range, I’ve hosted in-line matches at my home range and have helped guys in my state host an in-line match..
4) ATA, I’m not too familiar with, but like the NMLRA leadership- I’m sure they support promoting their sport. Is the ML community doing so? I think NOT- with social media today, when have you seen Knight, CVA, or any other mfg promote anything but themselves? I know they’ve been asked.
The ML community as a whole is responsible.

A couple of years ago I TRIED to host an In-line match. The rules I posted generally followed the NRA black powder target rifle rules [but modified for in-lines.] Pretty simple. It seemed like everyone who expressed interest had their own idea what the rules SHOULD BE. I've shot NRA BPTR mid and long range and BPCR Silhouette matches for over 25 years. The results were that I cancelled the match.

 

[52Bore]

History tells us a lot.
The NMLRA was formed in 1933 to promote ML - decades after the introduction of the cartridge case and smokeless powder. Many of the same shooters were shooting with both ML and BL (breech Loader). The BL decided to start the ASSRA in the 40’s.
The NRA rejoined the BP scene in the 80’s with the resurgence of BP Cartridge Rifle shooting - mainly Silhouette shooting - those rules are Black Powder. (Pyrodex being the only sub allowed)
More than a decade later, Savage introduced the Smokeless ML around the turn of the century - only to cease production in less than a decade, for many reasons.
Today, with the development of BH209 more than a decade ago, NONE of the Big 5 manufactures I’ve talked to have any plans for Smokeless ML.
Progressive- IMO, currently the NMLRA and the manufactures are very content with the BATF approved ‘Progressive’ burning BH209 (a BP Sub) as well with the dozen or so other BP & Subs available to the modern ML community.

 

[52Bore]

X-ring:
I’m glad you even tried, but that’s unfortunate.

 

[Dougs136Schwartz]

Other than Customs there will never be a mass produced smokless muzzleloader built again. The reason being unless you double load a muzzleloader (powder bullet powder bullet ) you will not blow up a rifle with Black powder or black powder subs. Smokless powder is a whole different story. I feel that is the reason the NMLRA will never allow smokless. Myself personally i would never allow smokless either . Just not worth the risk.

The guys that host smokless matches are for the most part hosting a match for their own rifles. They have either built the guns or sold parts to have the guns built.(for the most part) It is pretty much is a select group of people that know what they are doing.

I can not say enough good about the NMLRA. I appreciate everything they are doing and have done. Sometimes there may be a little bickering but what organization doesnt have that ? If you add any kind of competition there will ALWAYS be complainers . Even though I do not compete with a traditional style rifle(YET !) I very much enjoy reading about them. I only wish i would of known about the NMLRA years ago.

 

[ENCORE50A]

A couple of years ago I TRIED to host an In-line match. The rules I posted generally followed the NRA black powder target rifle rules [but modified for in-lines.] Pretty simple. It seemed like everyone who expressed interest had their own idea what the rules SHOULD BE. I've shot NRA BPTR mid and long range and BPCR Silhouette matches for over 25 years. The results were that I cancelled the match.

With all due respect then and also now, its to bad that didn't get off the ground. You did try and hard. I do know of 4 of us that were signed up and had purchased shooting mats and cross sticks, or made our own sticks. Yes there was bickering back and forth. Some were upset because sabots were a requirement and no land riding bullets. Others wanted to debate "customs". Nobody is going to be pleased all the time.

I also believe one major reason that did not get pulled off, was because it was held on Memorial weekend. Most people in MI are opening up cabins and cottages with it being the first long weekend for spring with families. As I remember though, it was the only weekend you could have the range. The only reason I had to back out was because of a severe knee injury and surgery. However if you remember, I rode down (3+hr), limped around and watched you folks shoot BPCR's.

I have a lot of respect for Bob (45-70) and his ability to get shooters together for his spring matches. He works hard getting it going at Friendship. He has it established and shooters look forward to it.
I have 70 Ultimate shooters on a site and we talked about a single shoot. With members from Saskatchewan, Cal, and all over the U.S., trying to get that group or a few together proved to be extremely unlikely. It was. It wasn't the shoot that may have been the problem, but all the expenses in travel, the time, gas, motels, food, etc. Then to find a more central location that had at least a 300yd range that would allow the group without being all members. So.... I applaud those who can organize and start a first time shoot.

 

[SuperKirby]

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. We can set up a get together at the farm sometime later this summer if there’s interest. Zip code is 55319 if anyone is interested. Not reserving a range but I have a lane or two that will stretch out a ways. We can organize it as a structured shoot or just a MM get together.

This is getting a little side tracked from my original intent. I’m not focused just on the shoot. I guess I was more just wondering about the overall progressive nature of the organization trying to promote it and grow the sport overall.

 

[45-70]

In your original post , you were hesitant to join , I wish you would and every one on this sight. You could also check into starting a Charter club through the NMLRA. It is best way to recruit members. Don't know where you live but would be interested i a shoot. How far from Indiana.