BH 209 - No need to clean? Explanation?

[RoJo]

If you Googled this topic there’d be no shortage of reading - for many hours. I’v seen Threads from diehards that avoid cleaning a BH 209 bore without a second thought. Some insist on cleaning after every shot just to abide by their technique of “consistency.” Some clean after a certain number of shots. I’ve only had two sessions of 50 rounds with Barnes and Hornady sabots. My own novice testimonial is that from the beginning to the end my POI was very consistent. From a scientific muzzleloaders perspective, surely someone has proven why the “no-cleaning” habit with BH 209 is possible. I don't have a clue.

As I wonder, is it possible that the BH is so clean that there is no buildup? Or, whatever residue was in the barrel got blown out with the new charge? Or that the hot charge just burns the residue? One day I will test the issue to witness my grouping after cleaning the barrel after each shot. Then I’d like to track the number of times I get a flyer or two when I do clean my barrel. Surely, there are members out there that have already tested.

 

[ENCORE50A]

At times the rifle barrel dictates rather one needs to swab between rounds or not. BH is not that clean, but it can loaded easier at times with a fouled barrel.

 

[ronlaughlin]

From a scientific muzzleloaders perspective, surely someone has proven why the “no-cleaning” habit with BH 209 is possible

No one had to prove 'no cleaning' works when using Blackhorn. It is a fact. One can shoot, shoot, and shoot some more when burning Blackhorn, without swabbing. Cleaning is not necessary.

Some believe maximum accuracy requires cleaning between shots. Some don't. Cleaning between shots is absolutely not necessary for ease of loading. For accuracy cleaning between shots may or may not help.

is it possible that the BH is so clean that there is no buildup?

In my opinion, Blackhorn is not 'clean'. However, the residue seems to be a lubricant. One can probably shoot Blackhorn fifty or more, or much more, times, without cleaning. Myself, i know i have shot at least thirty shots without cleaning. Cleaning between shots when burning Blackhorn is not necessary, but Blackhorn certainly isn't 'clean' burning. Leaving a rifle without cleaning for an extended time, after burning Blackhorn, is asking for a rusty barrel.

 

[RoJo]

No one had to prove 'no cleaning' works when using Blackhorn. It is a fact. One can shoot, shoot, and shoot some more when burning Blackhorn, without swabbing. Cleaning is not necessary.

Some believe maximum accuracy requires cleaning between shots. Some don't. Cleaning between shots is absolutely not necessary for ease of loading. For accuracy cleaning between shots may or may not help.





In my opinion, Blackhorn is not 'clean'. However, the residue seems to be a lubricant. One can probably shoot Blackhorn fifty or more, or much more, times, without cleaning. Myself, i know i have shot at least thirty shots without cleaning. Cleaning between shots when burning Blackhorn is not necessary, but Blackhorn certainly isn't 'clean' burning. Leaving a rifle without cleaning for an extended time, after burning Blackhorn, is asking for a rusty barrel.

Points well taken. I’m so new to ML that I’ve been to the range twice the past two weeks. With about 50 rounds each trip I never ran a patch through the barrel once. I had decent groups. Makes me wonder where all the residue came from with those that claim BH creates a dirty barrel. I’m a believer in BH, just wondering how it does what it does. As for cleaning, I learned in 50 years of hunting with CF guns to clean my guns the day I got home from the woods. Thanks.

 

[mwwoodman]

I've been shooting the same fouled barrel for about the last 4 years. I'd say 250 plus shoots. Typically it ends up left loaded after hunting season ends and sits in the case in my office. I may pull it out in the summer but definitely prior to the next hunting season and fire that load I left. That shot and the following shots are always 1" or better at 100 yards. I shoot Harvester crush ribs in this and they always load the same. I shot a bunch of smokeless loads out of this same barrel. Now it looks really clean. As an ongoing test I never clean this barrel, just keep shooting it. With Melonite QPQ over stainless and a 17-4 breech plug, it remains unharmed from what I see with my bore scope. Certainly if you have bare 400 series stainless, you will ruin it doing this. I'm a firm believer that BH209 residue doesn't accumulate, it remains consistent after some number initial shots.

 

[RoJo]

I've been shooting the same fouled barrel for about the last 4 years. I'd say 250 plus shoots. Typically it ends up left loaded after hunting season ends and sits in the case in my office. I may pull it out in the summer but definitely prior to the next hunting season and fire that load I left. That shot and the following shots are always 1" or better at 100 yards. I shoot Harvester crush ribs in this and they always load the same. I shot a bunch of smokeless loads out of this same barrel. Now it looks really clean. As an ongoing test I never clean this barrel, just keep shooting it. With Melonite QPQ over stainless and a 17-4 breech plug, it remains unharmed from what I see with my bore scope. Certainly if you have bare 400 series stainless, you will ruin it doing this. I'm a firm believer that BH209 residue doesn't accumulate, it remains consistent after some number initial shots.

Thanks for the info. I have no complaints at all with shooting BH 209. When I first bought my Accuracy I was situated with CVA articles and youtube videos. They promote nothing but IM White Hots and Powerbelts. I don't forsee the day I use either. Just very satisfied with what BH has done for me thus far.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

I've been shooting the same fouled barrel for about the last 4 years. I'd say 250 plus shoots. Typically it ends up left loaded after hunting season ends and sits in the case in my office. I may pull it out in the summer but definitely prior to the next hunting season and fire that load I left. That shot and the following shots are always 1" or better at 100 yards. I shoot Harvester crush ribs in this and they always load the same. I shot a bunch of smokeless loads out of this same barrel. Now it looks really clean. As an ongoing test I never clean this barrel, just keep shooting it. With Melonite QPQ over stainless and a 17-4 breech plug, it remains unharmed from what I see with my bore scope. Certainly if you have bare 400 series stainless, you will ruin it doing this. I'm a firm believer that BH209 residue doesn't accumulate, it remains consistent after some number initial shots.

That’s good info., but you should post what rifle you are using so no one gets confused with the OP’s rifle.

 

[RoJo]

I spent a little time looking for a previous post you sent where I believe you told me you and/or your son shoot the T-EZ in an Accura. If I have that right, did you always use the Barnes blue sabot or try something tighter? MMP sent me a sample of MPH 12's to try. They were a little more snug than the Barnes and POI at 100 yrd was almost identical. Any additional thoughts on changing from the blue sabot to something else? Thanks.

 

[HC]

If the mmp 12 s are loose then try harvester red crush ribs.

 

[RoJo]

If the mmp 12 s are loose then try harvester red crush ribs.

The MPH 12 was noticeably tighter than the Barnes blue TEZ but seemed like I could handle a little more resistance. Coincidently, I talked to Ron from Harvester this morning. They sent me some black smooth sabots to try. They were also tighter than the TEZ. When I asked about the crushed rib sabots he said that his experience with Accura shooters tells him that I'd probably be better off with the smooth sabot. Have you seen any posts where guys with Accuras like crushed rib or anything else better than the TEZ blue?

 

[GM54-120]

Ron told you right. The smooth is a better choice for CVAs most of the time. HPH-12 is the next step up or the MMP Orange for 50x458. Personally i do like Barnes to load a bit tighter than jacketed bullets but HPH-12 might be really tight in most CVAs.

You sure he sent HPH-12 and not HPH-24?

 

[RoJo]

Ron told you right. The smooth is a better choice for CVAs most of the time. HPH-12 is the next step up or the MMP Orange for 50x458. Personally i do like Barnes to load a bit tighter than jacketed bullets but HPH-12 might be really tight in most CVAs.

You sure he sent HPH-12 and not HPH-24?

Ron sent me the H5045SB (smooth, black) MMP sent me HPH 12’s and HPH 24’s. The 5045 and the H12 both fit a little tighter than the T-EZ’s. Are the 5045 and the H12 about the same? They both told me on the phone that what they were sending me is what most people use in leu of the blue T-EZ. Are there any other resources to look at for something better, or should I be satisfied with one of the two black sabots? Also, MMP told me that the HPH12 was good for the Hornady SST, but it was much higher on the bullet than it was on the Barnes bullet. Is there a standard for how long a sabot should be relative to the height of the bullet?

I appreciate your time and feedback.

 

[ShawnT]

The Hornady SST is a .452 Diameter bullet and the Barnes is a .451, that's why the Barnes loaded a bit easier with the HPH12. The Harvester Smooth Short Black (H5045SB) is about the same diameter as the MMP HPH 24 and the HPH 12 is larger in Load diameter. I have used the Havester SB and the MMP HPH 24 interchangeably in my knight Ultra lite with .452 diameter bullets, But if I go to a .451 I got the occasional Flier and changed to the MMP HPH 12 to get rid of the flier. Watch the diameter of the bullets you work with. Most of the 45cal bullets will run .451 diameter to .452 Diameter. A difference of .001 is not much but in some cases it can require a sabot change to eliminate fliers. I personally don't know who makes the sabots for the T-EZ but if I had to guess it would bet MMP. MMP also makes a 3 pedal ezload sabot too.

https://mmpsabots.com/store/black-3petal-ez/

 

[RoJo]

The Hornady SST is a .452 Diameter bullet and the Barnes is a .451, that's why the Barnes loaded a bit easier with the HPH12. The Harvester Smooth Short Black (H5045SB) is about the same diameter as the MMP HPH 24 and the HPH 12 is larger in Load diameter. I have used the Havester SB and the MMP HPH 24 interchangeably in my knight Ultra lite with .452 diameter bullets, But if I go to a .451 I got the occasional Flier and changed to the MMP HPH 12 to get rid of the flier. Watch the diameter of the bullets you work with. Most of the 45cal bullets will run .451 diameter to .452 Diameter. A difference of .001 is not much but in some cases it can require a sabot change to eliminate fliers. I personally don't know who makes the sabots for the T-EZ but if I had to guess it would bet MMP. MMP also makes a 3 pedal ezload sabot too.

https://mmpsabots.com/store/black-3petal-ez/

I'm the new guy with a million questions. Information like this is exactly why I ask questions on MM. I am a persistent son-of-a-gun that will eventually find my answers but I'm really grateful when you and the other members share your expertise. It cuts the chase and saves a person time, money, and aggravation. Don't know if you saw this comment, but want to make sure I don't shoot a risky load: "MMP told me to try the H12 on the Barnes and the Hornady SST. It looked to be a good fit for the Barnes but seemed to sit unproportionatley high on the SST. How do you guys gauge how high the sabot fits before you decide it needs to be cut down?"

 

[donparadowski]

Shoot a gun. Clean a gun.

 

[ShawnT]

They can tell you that but each bore will be a little different. I don't recall anyone using the MMP-HPh-12 in the CVA but that don't mean someone don't. CVA bores have been reported as on the tight side and lots use with the Crush Rib or the Havester SB. If the HPH12 was not too tight with the Barnes then I would shot it and see how it worked. For the SST I would use the Harvester SB or the HPH-24. Did you try the HPh-24 with the SST?

I let the bore tell me which sabot to use with a bullet. I usually have 2 and sometimes 3 different sabots handy to tell me which fits best. I don't like them to load too easy, for me they don't seem to shoot that well if they load real easy. I have never cut a sabot down but I have switched the jags around with some bullets since the jag can enter the sabot with shorter bullets. That can make one load tight too but I think GM mentioned that, somewhere today.

I've seen you mention PowerBelts a few times. Are you aware that CVA Manufactures them? That's why they push them.

Just an FYI, Harvester Makes the PT Golds too and those are also a .451 Bullet like the Barnes.

 

[RoJo]

They can tell you that but each bore will be a little different. I don't recall anyone using the MMP-HPh-12 in the CVA but that don't mean someone don't. CVA bores have been reported as on the tight side and lots use with the Crush Rib or the Havester SB. If the HPH12 was not too tight with the Barnes then I would shot it and see how it worked. For the SST I would use the Harvester SB or the HPH-24. Did you try the HPh-24 with the SST?

I let the bore tell me which sabot to use with a bullet. I usually have 2 and sometimes 3 different sabots handy to tell me which fits best. I don't like them to load too easy, for me they don't seem to shoot that well if they load real easy. I have never cut a sabot down but I have switched the jags around with some bullets since the jag can enter the sabot with shorter bullets. That can make one load tight too but I think GM mentioned that, somewhere today.

I've seen you mention PowerBelts a few times. Are you aware that CVA Manufactures them? That's why they push them.

Just an FYI, Harvester Makes the PT Golds too and those are also a .451 Bullet like the Barnes.

Thanks again for the useful information. I'm at that point where I no longer feel the necessity to know the exact measure of my bore. The first NC two-week ML season begins Sept. 28. Between the Barnes and the Hornady sabots, you guys have given me enough valuable information to find an effective combo by then. From there I'll just have to put in more range time to continue testing. I believe "BuckDoeHunter" told me that either he or his son has used the T-EZ's in an Accura for the past five years. I feel like I'm headed in the right direction to get ready for Sept 28.

I haven't used the sample pack of HPH-24's they sent me but I intend to try them this week on the SST's I have. Yesterday, I told MMP that the HPH-12's were a bit higher on the SST's than on the Barnes. She said her husband swears by the SST's and the 12's, and that they're ok to be a bit higher as long as they're not into the space of the polymer tip. I checked again last night and they're not.

As for the PT Golds, Ron gave me one in the sample bag of Harvester SB's. I shot it lat week and it landed in the same 100 yd MOA group of the Barnes' bullets. So, I bought a pack of the 260 gr. PT Gold's (crushed rib) at Cabela's last weekend. They're advertised as 50% less loading friction. Ron thought they might shoot a little better with the SB's but I'll see how the crushed ribs do.

As for the Powerbelts, they sent me a free pack of 270 gr. Platinums with my rifle as a free gift. I watched a ton of CVA videos and read their articles about "best loads." I kinda got turned off because they made it seem like PB and IMR White Hots was the only combo that was suitable for CVA rifles. They even had subtle ways to discredit the use of BH 209 and sabots. They may be accurate but I don't like the reports of poor terminal performance I keep seeing. I'm in no hurry to try them any time soon, if ever. I have enough to keep me busy for a while. With all the good info you guys have given me I'm looking forward to another range day this week. I'm waiting to see which of the 95-105 days will be the coolest this week. (lol) Thanks again.

 

[MSalyards]

I shoot the 452 Deep Curl Speer bullets in the crush rib Harvester. I tried the smooth sabots and they were too tight for my gun. Hard to load and stuck to the bullet till it hit the target at 50 yds. and shot way low. CVA Accura V2 with Nitride barrel.

 

[RoJo]

I shoot the 452 Deep Curl Speer bullets in the crush rib Harvester. I tried the smooth sabots and they were too tight for my gun. Hard to load and stuck to the bullet till it hit the target at 50 yds. and shot way low. CVA Accura V2 with Nitride barrel. View attachment 5149

Wow, that's crazy. Did you ever find an explanation to explain why the smooth sabot performed that way? With so many choices of bullets and sabots out there what influenced you to select the Speer? Like I mentioned, what seems to be working for me so far is the TEZ and the SST. I have to get to the point that I shoot enough of them to settle on a sabot, to at least get me to the opening of ML season. From there I can experiment with more combos.

The attached photo is from the 100-yard target at which I fired the six smooth sabots from Harvester. I'm not sure what caused the flier to the left of my group but it was my first shot fired. The other five rounds are in the group. The bullet hole at the bottom right is from a 240 gr. PT that Ron dropped in with my black sabots. I had just one round so I shot it to see where it would strike. I picked up a pack of 260 gr. PT Gold from Cabela's. I'm taking them to the range this week.

I understand from some readings on MM site that the terminal performance of the 250 gr. TEZ is pretty good. I tried the smooth sabot because I thought the blue sabot was a bit loose. I'm not good enough yet to know how loose is "too loose." Although the black, smooth sabots added some resistance I believe it's possible to handle some additional tightness, just not sure which sabot would give me that without going "too tight," or I can just leave well enough alone. What I don't know yet is the effect a loose load would have when hitting a deer compared to a tighter fitting load that generates more compression.

 

[ENCORE50A]

RoJo..………. I'd like to make a suggestion if that's ok...…..

I'd like to suggest that with the combo you shot the group with in the photo that you just posted, that you settle on it and just shoot more.

It appears that you're trying to obtain knowledge, maybe at to fast a pace. Not being critical of your wanting to learn. Those of us who have been at this for years, even many decades, still learn. We learn from others, trials, from our own and/or other's mistakes. It never ends. And what may work for one, might not for another.
Don't put yourself in a task saturation position, it'll come to you.

Throw that first shot out and the next 5 gave you a great group.