Unburnt bh209 in barrel and breech plug after shooting..

[Steelheader323]

well the title kinda says it all..I’ve boticed this over the years shooting bh209 and wondered if I was the only One..some rifles more than others some not at all.. today 36 degrees and rainy here in Michigan all 3 rifles that were used had a “pellet” or 2 left in the barrel of bh209 I say pellets because that’s what the tiny hollow barrels are that come in bh209 canisters or granulas I guess you could say..anyways. My omega and both of my buddies pursuits had a few granules in the breech plug after shooting a few rounds today..what causes this and how much powder do you think actually left the barrel unburned? Primers were cci magnums. In normally use the w209 primers..couldn’t find any locally tho sontreid the cci mags.. charges were fairly light today.. 85 grains by volume for him and 90 grains by volume for me. Sabots loaded nice and snug down the barrel.

 

[BuckDoeHunter]

I had that happen with my daughter's Remington 700ML. There was snow on the ground and I noticed unburned BH209 granules while looking for fired sabots. I placed a piece of cardboard down to catch some. I then placed the unburned grains in a small pile and put a lighter to them, sure enough, they lit right up. That was with a short barreled Rem 700ML youth model so I think that may have had something to do with it. I think I was using 80-90 grains of BH209 with a Win209 primer.

 

[Steelheader323]

Yea my rifle is a full length .50 cal omega. Ideal breech plug that was clean..I was getting decent groups with my cheap load of Thompson center cheap shot sabots and 90 grains of bh209 by volume..has me stumped. Maybe the sabots just isn’t tight enough but it sure felt pretty snug

 

[Idaholewis]

Same thing goes for Real Blackpowder, Goex that is, Swiss Real Black leaves no trace that we could find? Me and my Dad have Shot over Snow Together, His Trusty load of 100 Grains by Volume of Goex 2F, You can Follow a Trail/Line for Several Yards (15 yards or so?) of Powder Over the Snow. There was a LARGE Debate over this on the Sister Forum, the Majority of those Guy’s claim that it Won’t Burn if collected and tried? I haven’t tested it Myself, But i plan to. From what i seen with My Dad, The Flakes/Granules Left on the Snow from his Goex SURE LOOKS Unburned/Undamaged to me? I plan to test this over Sheets layed out. On the Contrary, I have Shot up to 80 Grains of Swiss 2F in my 10” Barreled Scout Pistol over Snow, Not a Trace found? And that’s only 7 inches or so of usable Barrel Length

 

[Henry Miles]

I had a similar but very unusual occurrence with my Omega and 80gr of BH209 and 250gr XTP saboted bullet. This is no exaggeration or made up tale. I am certain the bullet was seated on the powder charge. I was using the wrong 209 primer. This is to preface what happened before I begin. I pulled the trigger and heard the primer go off, but no BOOM. I held for a few seconds thinking hang fire. Nothing. I put the ramrod in the barrel and met resistance about halfway up the barrel. I pushed the resistance back down to the powder charge and noticed it went deeper than it should. Strange, I thought. I was about to reprime and try again. Then I thought maybe I should disassemble and push the load out the back end. I removed the breech plug and all the powder was there. The sabot followed the powder but there was no bullet in it! I later found the bullet laying in the yard 20ft from my shooting bench. How did the primer fail to ignite the powder but dislodged the bullet from the sabot and propel it 20ft forward? I am baffled...

 

[Idaholewis]

I had a similar but very unusual occurrence with my Omega and 80gr of BH209 and 250gr XTP saboted bullet. This is no exaggeration or made up tale. I am certain the bullet was seated on the powder charge. I was using the wrong 209 primer. This is to preface what happened before I begin. I pulled the trigger and heard the primer go off, but no BOOM. I held for a few seconds thinking hang fire. Nothing. I put the ramrod in the barrel and met resistance about halfway up the barrel. I pushed the resistance back down to the powder charge and noticed it went deeper than it should. Strange, I thought. I was about to reprime and try again. Then I thought maybe I should disassemble and push the load out the back end. I removed the breech plug and all the powder was there. The sabot followed the powder but there was no bullet in it! I later found the bullet laying in the yard 20ft from my shooting bench. How did the primer fail to ignite the powder but dislodged the bullet from the sabot and propel it 20ft forward? I am baffled...

LOL! I had the same thing happen, more than once, due to trying to use BH209 with my Slip Fit “Land Riding” Bullets.

My guess is you didn’t have the Proper Breech Plug? Bullet/Sabot wasn’t Tight Enough on the Powder? (BH209 Requires X amount of Compression to “Hopefully” Fire)

I learned what it takes to make BH209 Go off, I stil find it AMAZING that you can Pop a 209 Shotgun Primer off THROUGH the Middle of a Charge of BH209 and NOT Set it off?

And 1 even better, BH209 Can actually Start to Burn, and Go out I had that happen as well, Another Baffling experience

 

[Henry Miles]

My bullet/sabot were a little bit loose, more than I normally like to use, but worked fine with T7. The breech plug is right, the primers were the ML209 and I've since learned the right combination and compression that works. I guess BH209 is finicky about ignition.

 

[GM54-120]

Oddly i set off numerous shots one day while testing a Lehigh plug using WinT7 primers. Not a single dud but temps were at least 65F. Im pretty certain the only FTF i ever had was with a dirty FPJ Knight plug.

THIS IS NOT RECOMMENDED> IT WAS TESTING ONLY

 

[Idaholewis]

Hey GM, I have heard of those Triple 7 209s p, But i Know nothing about them? How much less Power than Regular 209s? Is it VERY Noticeable?

And When you refer to 65 Degrees, have you noticed a Difference with BH209 in Different Temps?

 

[GM54-120]

WinT7 primers are the mildest 209 available. Far less powerful than any normal 209 and the least powerful of the ML209s too.

I mentioned temps because that could easily have made a difference with a primer that mild. Pretty sure Ron has burned LOTS of BH209 in temps under 25F with regular 209s. Hopefully i will find my Rems STS primers soon. I really want to see if they will fit the crazy tight fit im getting with the FPJ adapter and the new Lehigh plug. A STS primer is really short. Roughly .008 to almost .010 shorter than a Win209 but just as hot as a Win209.

 

[Steelheader323]

Ok so after thinking about it some more I came home and did some testing of sorts as I know bh209 loves a tight fitting projectile and it’s a progressive burning powder.

Tonight I put the clean freshly drilled breech plug into my .50 omega then went in to load and test various projectiles I have at home in it by losing them to the plug..meaning the ramrod with tape and firing a just primer off them measuring how far the projectile moved..I tested 2 different primers that I commonly use and tested 4 different projectiles..after the tests I now am certain the reason for the unburnt powder left over has a lot to do with the bullet not seating tightly..I was shooting the t/c cheap shots at the range the other day at the range as I have a ton of them and planned to use them for the heavy cover short range shots I’ll be making where my stand is located for this season..I normally shoot the Barnes tez 250 but had none to test today as the stores around here are all out..they did have the 290 tmz tho and i now have a package of those but as of last weekend at the range my guns now sighted in with the cheap shots so those will have to do. I am however excited to get some of the tmz boat tails down range as the tez 250s shot very well from my rifle. Id be willing to bet the 290 tmz shoots just as well if not better.

I attached a chart with the 4 projectiles I tested with the 2 different primers..each bullet was tested 8 times total..4 times with each primer reseating the projectile after each shot and taking the average distance of the 4 shots.

 

[HC]

Looks like the win 209 had more push in all 4 groups compared to the cci Mag primer.

 

[Steelheader323]

Yes definitely the hotter of the 2 primers at least with my test results

 

[ENCORE50A]

Yes definitely the hotter of the 2 primers at least with my test results

I …. think... that the difference might be considered closer to heat vs pressure. Take reloading shotgun hulls. Most any shotgun primer will work for some given loads, but it is never recommended that the "standard type primer" be replaced with a primer such as the CCI209M or the Federal 209A in most cases.

The test below was obtained by testing 10 shells of each primer. Note the chamber pressures between CCI209M and WIN209's and velocity difference.

 

[Steelheader323]

Great info that makes sense!