Anticipated grouping and accuracy with a White muzzleloader

[Icerman]

I have 2 white muzzleloaders (Whitetail and Bison). I read multiple posts about how accurate they are and that they are "tack drivers". I have yet to have read about anyone definition of a "tack driver". I may get as good as 3" groups at 100 yards with a scoped muzzleloader on a bench rest. Personally I hardly consider this a "tack driver". What size of 3-5 shot, 100 yard-200 yard groups should I expect from my White muzzleloaders? What projectile and power/power charges are you using to get good groups?

 

[toytruck]

When I owned a Bison I set it up for my grandson at 25yds which only took about 4-5 shots to get it on target. I was using powerbelts (to use them up) 295 gr. if memory serves, and 70gr. of triple 7 2Fg. I let him shoot it an at the time he had trouble with the recoil. I sold it an bought a M97 in .504 for him thinking I would save some weight, but turns out they both were the same. I like the Bison, but with the bull barrel it did seem heavy even to me.

I would suggest to bed the action, if not already done, and use a 460gr. bullshop or no excuses conical with 70-90gr. of T7 2Fg powder. I also use Remington #11 mag caps or RWS caps depending on the nipple size of the breechplug.

 

[edmehlig]

I shoot 45 cal Whites. I have a few M97’s and 1 M98. I can post pictures later on the groups I get. I shoot my own cast bullets that weigh 347, 390 & 465gr. Generally my loads shooting 3F powder either 777 or Swiss is 70gr. Yet my youngest grandson 13yrs old last year shot a fantastic group that I posted a couple times with a load of 60gr with my347gr bullet. I also use a felt wad under my bullets.
Let us know what bullet, powder, charge etc. you are shooting.

 

[Icerman]

So how tight of groups do you get at 100 yards (on a fairly consistent basis)? 1"? 2"?

My son gets 5" groups at 200 yards with a peep using his M97. We use a No Excusses 460 grain, 90 grain of Pyrodex P and CCI #11. My brother and son have CVA Maxima's (I think), and they can get 3" groups at 300 yards with a scope and a Sabot. I am wondering if I can expect anything close with my Whites.

 

[sdporter]

1-1/2” or less at 100 yds. If you can’t achieve this, start looking at bullet bases first, flash hole in breech plug second.
Bullet bases with NE bullets are susceptible to larger groups, (only cause of the way he ships them) call Dave and ask him,I’ll bet he’ll ship them in a little better packaging for a small fee, next would be a worn out breach plug.
Try a Bestill conversion, or I can build you one.

 

[Icerman]

Sdporter, you are the first person to give me an idea of the groups I hope to achieve! Thank you! Even Doc was vague on group size to "shoot for". I was hoping that 3" groups at 100 yards was not considered tack driver, I can do that with my patch round ball rifles and open sights! If 1.5" is possible, I can handle that!

I buy my No excuses bullets directly from David (I go to his house), so I should not have the problems with shipping that you mentioned. Seems that the bullets that I used from him years ago provided greater accuracy that the ones I now use with the blue lube. I was using my Early edition white tail, the groups suddenly opened up to about 7" at 100 yards (with a scope). I became quite frustrated with things. Called Doc, replaced my breach plug/nipple (my old one had quite an enlarged hole), and that brought me down to 4-5" groups, 3" on a good day but couldn't count on it. Tried felt wads, no improvement. The bullets would just slide down the barrel without pressure. I went and talked with David, tried a .504 bullet and it did the same thing. He said I had an oversized barrel and suggested trying Sabots. Ordered 500 harvester scorpion PT golds (300 grain) with red Sabot, and was getting 2.5-3" groups but still inconsistent. Adequate for 100 yards but would open up to a 12" group at 200 yards. I ended up going to Doc's place and he looked at it. He said that some barrels came back at .505 and suggested I try some bullets that size. I ended up buying a Bison with 25" barrel (just about broke the bank on that one!), from him; getting it set up with a peep and a scope, hope to shoot it this weekend. Was trying to get an idea of what to hope for cause $800 for a 3" group is not acceptable for that kind of money!

What is a "Bestill Conversion"?

 

[edmehlig]

Check with Dave and see if he can size you some at 504.5 and 505. If not, check with Bullshop he can give you a sample pack. I know when I once owned a White Ultra Mag it shot better with 504.5 bullets as the bore was slightly larger.
I would think a tighter fit plus using a 54 cal felt wad (yes 54 cal) would give you a better seal and improve accuracy. I use 50 cal felt wads with all of my 45 cal Whites.

 

[toytruck]

https://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/threads/white-breech-plug-with-replacement-nipple.34762/
I couldn't give you any 100yd groups from my Bison due to not shooting that far with it. Guess I should have been more clear on that....

 

[sdporter]

Post 8 explains the Bestill conversion plug. I have at least one rifle that I am sized at .507 It shoots a lot better at .507 than it was at .503 and it still loads easily. Were you swabbing between shots? My Whitetail shoots the .503's well after the first fouling shot.
So you are in Utah? If you have any one traveling back and forth to St. George, I can send you some of my homecast stuff that is sized at .505, and .507 to shoot. PM me if you're coming this way.

 

[sdporter]

This was with my S91 .451

 

[edmehlig]

Here are a few targets that I've shot with either my 451 M97 or M98. Do I do this all the time? Hell no, but I do it frequently enough to know if I don't its my fault. My grandson was 13 when he shot this target. His load was 60gr of 777-3F with my 347gr HP Gould bullets with a felt wad under the bullet. That mold is the Lyman 330gr Gould HP mold that casts a 347gr with pure lead.

 

[Icerman]

Now I call that tack driving! Thanks edmehlig and sdporter for the targets, you have given me hope (and high expectations). My over bore sized white never came close to that. I will follow up on your advice sdporter and try some larger diameter bullets. I will see if David has some for me to try; Doc gave me (4) .505 to try.

Sdporter, I do live in Northern Utah, I rarely make it down to St. George area, but thanks for the offer. The farm where I grew up is located on the SE side of the state.

My oldest son asked if I thought about casting my own bullets. Did those of you who cast, buy your cast or have one custom made? Is it worth it? I reload but after spending thousands in gear, can't say it is cheaper than buying factory...but is more fun! Is it worth it casting bullets for one gun? I am hoping the new Bison I have will do good with the No excuses bullets.

 

[sdporter]

Bullet to bore fit is everything in a White, as I’m sure it is with every other rifle. The whole reason I bought my first, and subsequent whites was the ability to load and shoot several times without cleaning and with no apparent loss in accuracy.
You’ll want to foul your bore heavily and then you should get good grouping as long as your bullet to bore is correct, you can shoot several (8-10-12 more) times while maintaining fairly easy loading and good accuracy. The second target I showed in the video was also a figure eight shot, the paper tore to the right making me think the bullet hit a half inch right. Upon closer inspection after I put the video up, I realized that it was a figure eight, almost exactly in the same hole, ever so slightly right. What part of SE Utah did you grow up? Moab? Monticello?

 

[sdporter]

I build all my own moulds.

 

[edmehlig]

I cast my own bullets and for my .451 White's I sized them to .452 and use a 50 cal felt wad.

 

[Icerman]

Thanks for the information. I tried a 50 cal wad in my whitetail and it did not help, I will try a 54 cal wad and see how things go. I think going with a larger diameter bullet may be the vital thing for my whitetail. I am excited to shoot the new Bison this Friday. I cut away the stock and added a peep sight to it last night. Waiting for my scope mounts to come in and will get that started on getting that set up option going. Man if I can get groups like what edmehlig and sdporter are getting I will be delighted!

So building your own mold, do you mean you built it or had it build to your specs? Must say, that is beyond my ability. I am intrigued with maybe pouring my own...gee I hear more $$$ going out the window!

Sdporter I am from Monticello. Grew up on a farm near Colorado, went to elementary school in Dove Creek CO, then mom moved to town so we could go to high school there.

 

[edmehlig]

If you are going to start casting look at accurate Molds web site. I would also look at Bullshop’s website for bullets they sell and would size them to fit your needs.

 

[dozer_xj]

My dad has hunted with whites since the 90s. He gets about 3-4"groups at 100 yards. 12"groups at 200. He has never tried any different loads though. 100 grains of pyrodex P with a 440 grain 50 cal bullet and 110 grains with a 545 in his 54 is all he has ever and will ever shoot. He and I have both killed alot of deer with them but we almost never shoot over 50 yards. I did kill a doe in a bean field with his 54 cal bison at 120 yards. I also killed my first muzzeloader deer when I was 9 with that 54 cal bison. That is too much gun for a 9 year old but I got the job done ahahhaha.

 

[idahoron]

I'm not bashing No excuse bullets. I actually recommend them to a lot of guys. But the fact is he is not weighing them for quality control. I have seen as much as 10 grains difference in a box of bullets. The guys that I have told about them buy them then weigh them.
I have shot a lot of 1" groups with muzzleloaders. Both traditional and inline. The fact is with peep sights or open sights sub 3" is not really that bad. Especially if a guy is shooting OTC bullets.

 

[edmehlig]

While NoExcuses shot much better out of my White's than White's Power Punches, like you I found they weigh anywhere from 7-10gr difference in a box. That's why I got started casting my own. This way I can ensure they weigh less than 1gr difference and get the most out of accuracy with my rifles. Most times I weigh my charges to squeeze that last bit of accuracy out of them.